pre bonsai 101

[yingyang]

Hi

I am completely new to the art of bonsai. So new I would classify myself as an ignorant. I come here to the experts and the people of knowledge in order that I might learn a thing or two and guide me by listening to your advice. I have purchased seeds of the kinds Jacaranda Mimosifolia ; Pinus Aristata ; Ficus Religiosa ; Picea Mariana. My intention is for them to be indoor plants. However I am wondering if for the upcoming few months I can start my pots outdoors and then eventually move them indoor by autumn time. I live in Canada in the Ottawa valley region and temperatures are generally speaking, warming up. I have an area that is facing south that receives a good amount of sunlight during the day. Would this be fine or would it be better to start them indoor. I will be using bonsai soil as an FYI. As well, any flowering bonsai that you would recommend for indoor? AS a matter of fact are the ones that I have ordered ( they come in a kit that I have a feeling some of you already know about as I have seen many videos on Youtube about them) are these ones recommended for indoors, if not any suggestions? I humbly wait for any bit of information and I thank you for taking the time to read what I have posted.

 

[Tacoma2012]

Very new to bonsai myself, but not new to horticulture... my advice would be to obviously get a few trees that are already established when you get started, as seeds will take MANY years... and for the outdoor stuff, stick to native species that you know already grow well in your area.


Welcome!!

 

[Shibui]

Ficus do very well indoors as they are naturally plants of shady tropical forests. Most growers take figs indoors for winter then out for the summer when temps are above freezing. With good lighting you may even be able to keep them indoors all year round.
Pines like sunshine and lots of it. I have not heard of anyone managing to keep pines healthy indoors. Unless you are a real expert with trees indoors I would not expect those to survive for more than a few weeks indoors.
Jacaranda should be able to cope with indoors for a few months while they are dormant but will probably do far better outdoors when the temperatures are warmer.

Seeds can be germinated indoors or out but beware of hungry herbivores and seed eaters outdoors. They seem to be able to find seeds even buried in soil. seedlings will usually do far better outdoors after they have begun to grow.

Good luck with the bonsai journey. You have certainly chosen the long road to start from seed and there are many hurdles to get over even before starting to shape or prune your trees.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Welcome YingYang

The assortment of seed you bought is interesting. Two are strictly outdoor trees, guaranteed failure if you try to keep them indoors through winter.

Pinus aristata is winter hardy through zone 5, possibly colder, so should tolerate your winters, set the pots on the ground, on the north side of your home or a fence. Let it get covered by snow and you will be set for the winter. If you try to winter bristlecone pines indoors they will fail, die within 2 to 3 years. They must have a cold winter rest to be healthy.

Picea mariana - is the Black Spruce, native to much of Canada, north towards Hudson Bay, even further north, to the tree line limit. You can winter this one outdoors no problem. Just set the pot on the ground, on the north side of a house or fence, so that it is in shade for the winter. Let the snow cover it. It will be fine.

Jacaranda mimosifolia - This is a full sun tropical tree. Best results will be outdoors in full sun for summer, indoors for winter in the brightest light you have.

Ficus religiosa - Ficus are more tolerant of shade, but they do take full sun if stepped into it, given time to adapt. Ficus is the only one of your list that could be grown indoors all year round and get good results. Most though will treat these as outdoor for summer, indoor for winter tropicals.

Hope this helps. I know it is not what you had planned for, but trees that come from areas with cold winters usually are adapted to the point where they require a cold winter to remain healthy.

 

[rockm]

If you're new to bonsai, one of the first things to learn is that growing from seed is only one way to go about it.

Unfortunately, it's also one of the slowest and least satisfying paths for someone who actually wants to "do" and learn actual bonsai cultural techniques. The majority of bonsai are not "grown up" from seeds, but "cut down" from larger established stock trees. There will undoubtedly be folks that argue this point, but by and large starting with larger stock trees is a less frustrating path than seeds.

If you want to start with seeds, be prepared for at least five years of just growing them out -- if they survive, since keeping bonsai indoors is another --there challenge you will have. There are no "indoor" plants, only plants that can tolerate the harsh environment under a roof with central heating/air conditioning, extremely low light, air circulation and humidity. Also, growing effectively from seeds requires the grower to have some prior knowledge of bonsai so as to avoid future problems--everything you do to a seedling will show up in the bonsai down the road, from inadequate root pruning to establish a nebari to setting the initial trunk design.

Sorry to be such a bummer, but you're setting yourself up for failure, or at least discouragement with trying to grow bonsai from seed indoors...

 

[sorce]

Your seeds may also actually be something else, so make sure to verify their identify before deciding their indoor our outdoor fate.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[Daniel_UK]

Your pine and spruce will eventually need to remain outdoors. Traditional christmas trees are a species of spruce: Picea Abies, and look what happens to them when they are left inside at Christmas, coupled with lack of roots.

It is not ideal to grow the pine and spruce from seed this late in the season as you need time for the greenwood/softwood to harden before winter, although this depends on the extremities of your winter.

Your lowest temperature this week seems to be around 8° C with day temperatures high enough to encourage germination. Therefore, I think that you could germinate all 4 species outside at the moment.

I have grown a Jacaranda Mimosifolia and a Ficus (although microcarpa) from seed and it does take a while, so working on older trees can teach you a lot as your seeds grow, but you get 100% control over their development and if you take care of a bonsai for the rest of your life, then 5 years is nothing. There is something really special seeing seeds develop into bonsai and being their for the whole journey.

 

[yingyang]

Hi
Thank you all for taking the time to give me your input. It is indeed very insightful.

Your pine and spruce will eventually need to remain outdoors. Traditional christmas trees are a species of spruce: Picea Abies, and look what happens to them when they are left inside at Christmas, coupled with lack of roots.

It is not ideal to grow the pine and spruce from seed this late in the season as you need time for the greenwood/softwood to harden before winter, although this depends on the extremities of your winter.

Your lowest temperature this week seems to be around 8° C with day temperatures high enough to encourage germination. Therefore, I think that you could germinate all 4 species outside at the moment.

I have grown a Jacaranda Mimosifolia and a Ficus (although microcarpa) from seed and it does take a while, so working on older trees can teach you a lot as your seeds grow, but you get 100% control over their development and if you take care of a bonsai for the rest of your life, then 5 years is nothing. There is something really special seeing seeds develop into bonsai and being their for the whole journey.

Any tips or advice you would be willing to share about planting a Jacaranda from seed. I am mostly concerned climate wise. And expectations on the tree flowering??


Other types of bonsai trees I should look into??
Thank you

 

[Daniel_UK]

Hi
Thank you all for taking the time to give me your input. It is indeed very insightful.



Any tips or advice you would be willing to share about planting a Jacaranda from seed. I am mostly concerned climate wise. And expectations on the tree flowering??


Other types of bonsai trees I should look into??
Thank you

The jacaranda will be fine indoors all year round. If you want to put it outside then remember that it is frost tender so it is recommended that they never go below 5° C and this is especially true when they are young as they won't have the hardwood to protect them. My jacaranda is still young and hasn't flowered - I wouldn't expect it to flower for at least a couple of years. Growing from seeds always surprises me though - I have a rainbow eucalyptus (Eucalyptus Deglupta) that germinated only four months ago and has already flowered. If I was to start again with the jacaranda then it would start it off in a small pot and make sure that the starting soil mix has good drainage as they don't seem to like water retentive soil, even at a very early age. Good website for jacaranda info (https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=959).

Not many people grow them as bonsais, but the baobab (Adansonia Digitata) is great. Most seeds germinate (I had 90% germinate rate) they grow really fast and get thick trunks. You don't need to think about humidity like you do with many tropical trees. The downside is that they have huge leaves, but these can be reduced in time and they don't branch like most other trees. However, you can create something which is a real talking point. The tamarind tree (Tamarindus indica) is also great. Ficus grows a ridiculous amount - I have to prune it every 2/3 months or it gets out of control. Sargetia Thea is a great tree that grows well and you can really practise your pruning and styling with it but the wood gets very hard and unbendable, so is a good one to start from seed.

My main piece of advice is to grow lots of seeds right now so that in 5 years time you have lots of species and you have control of them the whole way through.

 

[bluesky]

Other types of bonsai trees I should look into??

Hi Yingyang,
Get a couple of Chinese elms or more - put a couple permanently outside and another one or two indoors. They are great survivors so you can learn all the basics over the next few years while your various seedlings grow. Over time you'll see the difference with keeping the trees in full sun, basically leaves need much sunlight so in general keep them outside as many months as you can.
If you're really set on an indoor bonsai, get a ficus and put it next to the brightest window in your house. Ficus is a tropical species that tends to survive all kinds of torture! But not the cold.

 

[penumbra]

If you are new to this, don't grow seedlings for bonsai. Grow seedlings because you enjoy the process. There is a chance that about 10 years down the road you will have a bonsai from seed.
You really need to do some nursery hopping.

 

[yingyang]

What are your thoughts on these types of trees?

• Silk Tree (Albizia Julibrissin
• Pink Flower Mimosa Sensitive (Mimosa Pudica)
• Japanese Quince (Chaenomeles Japonica)
• Crepe Myrtle (Lagerstroemia Indica)

I am taking your advice on planting different species, and there are so many... I like the flowering trees, but again not sure if expectations should be high for them to bloom, but any input is appreciated, thank you.

 

[penumbra]

What are your thoughts on these types of trees?

• Silk Tree (Albizia Julibrissin
• Pink Flower Mimosa Sensitive (Mimosa Pudica)
• Japanese Quince (Chaenomeles Japonica)
• Crepe Myrtle (Lagerstroemia Indica)

I am taking your advice on planting different species, and there are so many... I like the flowering trees, but again not sure if expectations should be high for them to bloom, but any input is appreciated, thank you.

You should probably look at a few bonsai books. Try to go with some of your native species or if you need indoor plants, consider the ficus first-most.

Albizia - short lived as trees go and likely to throw a dead branch now and again. Not very popular among bonsai nuts but it can make a beautiful bonsai but not in Canada.
Mimosa pudica - tropical plant sprawling ground-cover in nature. Takes a Long time to wood up and probably will never have girth. However, I have seen a few pretty ones, but nothing outstanding.
Quince - in able hands it can make a beautiful display but it is not an easy plant to work with convincingly.
Crepe Myrtle - same as above. Some are very beautiful. Very tough plant in zone 6 and warmer. Not for our northern friends unless winter care can be provided in an outdoor environment.

 

[yingyang]

You should probably look at a few bonsai books. Try to go with some of your native species or if you need indoor plants, consider the ficus first-most.

Albizia - short lived as trees go and likely to throw a dead branch now and again. Not very popular among bonsai nuts but it can make a beautiful bonsai but not in Canada.
Mimosa pudica - tropical plant sprawling ground-cover in nature. Takes a Long time to wood up and probably will never have girth. However, I have seen a few pretty ones, but nothing outstanding.
Quince - in able hands it can make a beautiful display but it is not an easy plant to work with convincingly.
Crepe Myrtle - same as above. Some are very beautiful. Very tough plant in zone 6 and warmer. Not for our northern friends unless winter care can be provided in an outdoor environment.

Thank you for your input.

 

[yingyang]

You should probably look at a few bonsai books. Try to go with some of your native species or if you need indoor plants, consider the ficus first-most.

Albizia - short lived as trees go and likely to throw a dead branch now and again. Not very popular among bonsai nuts but it can make a beautiful bonsai but not in Canada.
Mimosa pudica - tropical plant sprawling ground-cover in nature. Takes a Long time to wood up and probably will never have girth. However, I have seen a few pretty ones, but nothing outstanding.
Quince - in able hands it can make a beautiful display but it is not an easy plant to work with convincingly.
Crepe Myrtle - same as above. Some are very beautiful. Very tough plant in zone 6 and warmer. Not for our northern friends unless winter care can be provided in an outdoor environment.

any books you would recommend??

 

[penumbra]

There are a lot of excellent books. Currently I am ready Bonsai Heresy. Look here in the archives. New and old books are always being discussed.
Best luck to you.

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

...and for the outdoor stuff, stick to native species....

Maybe...

I tried "native species" when I was new to Bonsai, but grew very frustrated by growing them. Not all "natives" are created equal. For example, the Short-Leaf Pine is native to my area, but growing them for bonsai has been very frustrating. Black Pines are not native to my area, but grow very well here and I've found lots of success. IMHO, the best trees to use, early on, are the very popular bonsai species. Then figure out which of those grow best in your area.

CONIFER
Japanese Black Pine
Shimpaku Juniper

DECIDUOUS
Japananse Maple
Chinese Elm
Trident Maple

FLOWERING
Satsuki

TROPICAL (many fit this category b/c they are pretty easy to grow)
Tiger Bark Ficus
Portulacaria Afra


These species offer many gifts to the new bonsai enthusiast.

1. They respond well to training. Nothing sucks more than doing a simple repot or prune, only to find the tree dead a short time later. (See Short-Leaf Pine above)
2. The information available to grow and train these trees is robust. Sure, you can find Douglas fir or Japanese Beech information out there, but will that info fit for your climate and situation? Maybe, maybe not. The great thing about the above species is that there are TONS of information and a new person can and will find pertinent growing information based on where they live. You can post a JBP question on this forum and the answers you receive will typically be good and plentiful.
3. Any hobby or art requires learning the basics first, before moving onto more advanced material. Why should bonsai be any different? These species offer a map to broader and more interesting bonsai species, while keeping the new bonsai enthusiast finding success.
4. These species are readily available for sale. In many different forms, from seedlings to specimen. Allowing you to have a trees of different caliber as you grow into the hobby, regardless of budget.


And one final note on junipers. If I had to do all over again, I'd only work with Shimpaku/Itiogowa/Kishu junipers in my first few years. I realize others have good attributes, but again, the foliage on these is so good that it hides so many flaws a new hobbyist makes. I started many junipers over my first 5 years and the shimpakus are the only ones left om my bench.


I suppose these are some confessions of a "5 year bonsai enthusiast". Take them for what you will