Pot with swastika stamp

[Gabler]

Symbols only have a certain meaning within a certain context. In that sense, they function like any other form of language, be it written or spoken. If we're speaking English, and I use the word "no." it's clear that I am responding to you in the negative. In Japanese, the word "no" functions like a preposition. It's pronounced exactly the same way, but it's in the context of a different language, so the meaning is entirely different.

In the European and North American context, the swastika is a Nazi symbol. Almost no one is aware that the symbol pre-dates the Nazis. In the Hindu context, it's my understanding that it's a positive religious symbol, but that doesn't matter to non-Hindus. We're not operating in that context. We're operating in a Western post-WWII context. A westerner wearing a swastika necklace looks like a Nazi.

By contrast, it's clear in the context of bonsai that a swastika on the bottom of a pot is used in the older sense as an Eastern religious symbol.

 

[Matt B]

Symbols only have a certain meaning within a certain context. In that sense, they function like any other form of language, be it written or spoken. If we're speaking English, and I use the word "no." it's clear that I am responding to you in the negative. In Japanese, the word "no" functions like a preposition. It's pronounced exactly the same way, but it's in the context of a different language, so the meaning is entirely different.

In the European and North American context, the swastika is a Nazi symbol. Almost no one is aware that the symbol pre-dates the Nazis. In the Hindu context, it's my understanding that it's a positive religious symbol, but that doesn't matter to non-Hindus. We're not operating in that context. We're operating in a Western post-WWII context. A westerner wearing a swastika necklace looks like a Nazi.

By contrast, it's clear in the context of bonsai that a swastika on the bottom of a pot is used in the older sense as an Eastern religious symbol.

Like I said, a lack of education in history and culture. Just because we Americans are by and large insular and somewhat arrogant in our belief that the US is the capital of the world doesn't change history or the fact that there are hundreds of countries and cultures, and hundreds more that are long gone. We need to expand our context if it is too narrow. We need to educate our children in history, language and culture so they won't only see from the lens of post industrial 'Merica.

Besides, although Shein's main market is the US and Canada, they sell worldwide, with India being a major market as well. They have the right to sell swastika-themed accessories, and they shouldn't cave to a few overly-vocal uneducated whiners. They should respond to that backlash with a shortly-worded description of the context and cultural significance of the swastika, and leave the listing up for people to purchase, whether they are purchasing it to promote their religious or worldly views, or whether they are Neo-Nazi skinheads gearing up for a march. They are retailers, and have no business in political trend-setting, and a sale is a sale.

That being said, although I know the historical significance of the swastika, I won't be sporting it on my apparel anytime soon. If it happens to be on the bottom of a bonsai pot that I buy, that's just fine and dandy.

 

[Gabler]

In my writing classes in school, I was repeatedly taught about the Greek concepts of logos, ethos, and pathos. They appeal to reason, moral authority, and emotion, respectively. I recall at least six different teachers and college professors who taught similar units on those three forms of rhetoric. It wasn't until later I stumbled onto the fourth form of rhetoric, kairos. It roughly means "timing," but that's a shallow explanation. It's best illustrated by comparing good and bad comedians. Kairos is the difference between a joke that's funny and a joke that fails to land. It's understanding the time, place, and audience in order to understand how your statements will be received.

It's unfortunate that kairos is seldom taught, because it's particularly important in the age of the internet. On these fora, our conversations are spread out across time and space, and that makes it particularly difficult to predict how our statements will be received.

In general, I agree with @Matt B's sentiment that people have gotten too sensitive, and a company shouldn't kowtow to the vocal minority over hurt feelings. At the same time, wearing a swastika necklace isn't a mere "microaggression." In the States, you might as well be wearing a pendant that says "Gas the Jews!" It wouldn't matter if the words "Gas the Jews!" meant something else in another language. It's patently offensive in the West.

Here in the States, I can use the term "fanny" as a polite alternative to "butt." As I understand it, that's NOT a polite term in the U.K., and it refers to a different part of the human anatomy. I'm not going to criticize the British if that word makes them uncomfortable. By the same token, I'm not going to criticize the Jews for sensitivity to a horrific even that happened in living memory.

 

[Sansokuu]

Sadly, this symbol's initial visual interpretation on any object is of the Nazis and their brutality. It can never be uncoupled from that past, like it or not.

Explain all you want, it does little to blunt the impact when it appears out of nowhere unexpectedly. And as for the "snowflakes", I can imagine someone Jewish having a less than favorable impression if faced with this symbol out of the blue.

This is sadly true, as much as I commend efforts to continue its usage for its original purpose. On our last trip to Japan I found the perfect omamori (a good luck amulet you can get from buddhist temples) for a friend, it was purple, her favorite color, and was specifically for doing well on tests (she had a huge final coming up in the fall she needed to pass to continue her change in career). But I passed on it because it had a swastika and she’s Jewish. I simply don’t think she could have gotten past that, though now that she has passed the exam (I gave her a different amulet that she was so excited to receive), I can ask her what she thinks about it.

 

[Matt B]

This is sadly true, as much as I commend efforts to continue its usage for its original purpose. On our last trip to Japan I found the perfect omamori (a good luck amulet you can get from buddhist temples) for a friend, it was purple, her favorite color, and was specifically for doing well on tests (she had a huge final coming up in the fall she needed to pass to continue her change in career). But I passed on it because it had a swastika and she’s Jewish. I simply don’t think she could have gotten past that, though now that she has passed the exam (I gave her a different amulet that she was so excited to receive), I can ask her what she thinks about it.

Well, every culture has different feelings about certain things. My Fiance is of Chinese lineage, with both of her parents being Chinese. To make things fun, sh was born and lived the first 16 years of her life in Bangladesh. I only know two languages, but she knows English, Mandarin Chinese, Cantonese, Hakka Chinese, Bengali, Hindi and a bit of Urdu. She knows all the funky traditions of China, and they have some weird feelings about gifts. She had a crappy chefs knife that was in appalling condition, so I gave her an upper-end set of Henkels, which she promptly hid from her parents. As it turns out, you can't gift knives, it is traditionally an omen of Ill intent or cutting ties with someone. You can't gift someone a set of four teacups, because the number 4 is inauspicious. All the dishes and silverware in the US come in 4 place settings, 4 dinner plates, 4 bowls, 4 forks, etc. It goes on and on with the number 4. You can't give a Chinese person a clock, as that means their time is running out. You can't give shoes because the word for shoes sounds a lot like the word for evil. You can't give a wallet, because you'll lose all your wealth. The bride doesn't wear white, as white is funeral apparel color. We have it easy in the states, we dont have nearly as many superstitions.

I can forgive Jewish people for the swastika aversion, but the professionally offended social justice warriors who write news articles about companies selling g things they don't like, even though they have no dog in the fight, other than the irresistible and insatiable need to publicly virtue signal... That is unforgivable.

 

[Sansokuu]

parents. As it turns out, you can't gift knives, it is traditionally an omen of Ill intent or cutting ties with someone. You can't gift someone a set of four teacups, because the number 4 is inauspicious. All the dishes and silverware in the US come in 4 place settings, 4 dinner plates, 4 bowls, 4 forks, etc. It goes on and on with the number 4. You can't give a Chinese person a clock, as that means their time is running out. You can't give shoes because the word for shoes sounds a lot like the word for evil. You can't give a wallet, because you'll lose all your wealth. The bride doesn't wear white, as white is funeral apparel color. We have it easy in the states, we dont have nearly as many superstitions.

Oh I am familiar with some of this, mostly the number four which is also the word for death in Japanese. The knife superstition I feel like I have heard elsewhere. If you are gifted knives for a wedding you need to give the gifter a penny so technically you purchased them. My parents are from Taiwan, and while they are likely familiar with some of these superstitions (and tons more) they don’t give it much thought living in the states these days. My mom would love it if I bought her shoes lol. The one thing they are wary of though is the gifting of chrysanthemums, as they are definitely known as a funeral flower.

 

[pandacular]

a thread derailment in record time!

it’s an interesting pot, very thick walls which catch my attention for some reason. that detail may be helpful in identifying the maker.

 

[rockm]

Like I said, a lack of education in history and culture. Just because we Americans are by and large insular and somewhat arrogant in our belief that the US is the capital of the world doesn't change history or the fact that there are hundreds of countries and cultures, and hundreds more that are long gone. We need to expand our context if it is too narrow. We need to educate our children in history, language and culture so they won't only see from the lens of post industrial 'Merica.

Besides, although Shein's main market is the US and Canada, they sell worldwide, with India being a major market as well. They have the right to sell swastika-themed accessories, and they shouldn't cave to a few overly-vocal uneducated whiners. They should respond to that backlash with a shortly-worded description of the context and cultural significance of the swastika, and leave the listing up for people to purchase, whether they are purchasing it to promote their religious or worldly views, or whether they are Neo-Nazi skinheads gearing up for a march. They are retailers, and have no business in political trend-setting, and a sale is a sale.

That being said, although I know the historical significance of the swastika, I won't be sporting it on my apparel anytime soon. If it happens to be on the bottom of a bonsai pot that I buy, that's just fine and dandy.

It's sad that you see the aversion to this symbol as arrogant and narrow.

Educating our children in history includes teaching them about the Holocaust and what the people using this as their avatar did. Not being insular is understanding what you're talking about. This symbol is of course ancient and indigenous to many cultures' histories. However, the symbol was chosen because of that history. It was chosen because it appeared on ancient pottery from the near east. A German archaeologist found the symbol on a pot from Troy (ancient Greece) and connected it with old pottery found in Germany and speculated it connected to the Aryan race (which was reputedly formerly spread over Europe and western Asia). In other words the symbol's origin's are on pottery and Nazi lunatics used that to reinforce their "master face" theory.

Sure people should be able to use it in another context. However this symbol is always going to have extreme connotations and meaning for many people, good and evil. THere is a rousing market in Nazi memorabilia. The display of swastikas in Germany is illegal.

 

[czaczaja]

Its heavier because its made of pure Aryan clay Its very sad that the symbol got such a bad rep because of what happened a century ago. The symbol is plentiful in slavic circles as well as asia (where it originated) so it wouldn't be uncommon to see if the pot comes from that area.

 

[Matt B]

It's sad that you see the aversion to this symbol as arrogant and narrow.

This symbol is of course ancient and indigenous to many cultures' histories. However, the symbol was chosen because of that history. It was chosen because it appeared on ancient pottery from the near east. A German archaeologist found the symbol on a pot from Troy (ancient Greece) and connected it with old pottery found in Germany and speculated it connected to the Aryan race (which was reputedly formerly spread over Europe and western Asia). In other words the symbol's origin's are on pottery and Nazi lunatics used that to reinforce their "master face" theory.

So some racist German archeologist finds it in a country that has nothing to do with Germany, and make some crazy leaps of logic to attach significance to it., despite the symbol having been used in many other countries that have nothing to do with Germany. So fast forward, and they choose this as a symbol, but they aren't happy with its original orientation, so they flip the symbol backwards to a mirror image any use that. Seems perfectly rational that we should have an aversion to the original, peaceful religious symbol. That's like saying that some bad gangsters in the recent past used this as their symbol, so we have an aversion to this , and just for fun, we include this because it's scary. Not because any of these shmbols pose any danger to us, but because we somehow associate them to bad things in a Pavlovian response. When I look at a swastika, oriented backwards or forwards, I see a design that a child could accidentally doodle with a crayon. I understand it was used in a benign sense, and as an avatar of an evil regime, but the doodle means nothing to me, and I don't hold up a cross with my fingers, clutch my pearls or swoon at the sight of it. My grandmother on my father's side was Jewish, and he was also pragmatic about it. The symbol is not a monster hiding under our beds, it's a doodle of indentations we found on some pottery that we attached a scary significance to. Nothing more.

Sure people should be able to use it in another context. However this symbol is always going to have extreme connotations and meaning for many people, good and evil. THere is a rousing market in Nazi memorabilia. The display of swastikas in Germany is illegal.

To say the devils name summons him. Don't walk under that ladder. Run, it's a black cat! Careful with that mirror! That penny is not heads up, so even though its supposed to be good to pick it up, I'll ignore it. Step on a crack..... *yawn*

 

[Matt B]

Its heavier because its made of pure Aryan clay Its very sad that the symbol got such a bad rep because of what happened a century ago. The symbol is plentiful in slavic circles as well as asia (where it originated) so it wouldn't be uncommon to see if the pot comes from that area.

It's the symbol that makes it heavier. Cus it's... you know... scary!

Yeah, sad that it was hijacked, spun around backwards and some scary colors were added, and now it's all bad news. I suppose some people out there would break the pot, because that somehow makes their memories easier to bear, or breaks the spell. Like a child throwing their broccoli on the floor.

 

[Gabler]

So some racist German archeologist finds it in a country that has nothing to do with Germany, and make some crazy leaps of logic to attach significance to it., despite the symbol having been used in many other countries that have nothing to do with Germany. So fast forward, and they choose this as a symbol, but they aren't happy with its original orientation, so they flip the symbol backwards to a mirror image any use that. Seems perfectly rational that we should have an aversion to the original, peaceful religious symbol. That's like saying that some bad gangsters in the recent past used this as their symbol, so we have an aversion to this , and just for fun, we include this because it's scary. Not because any of these shmbols pose any danger to us, but because we somehow associate them to bad things in a Pavlovian response. When I look at a swastika, oriented backwards or forwards, I see a design that a child could accidentally doodle with a crayon. I understand it was used in a benign sense, and as an avatar of an evil regime, but the doodle means nothing to me, and I don't hold up a cross with my fingers, clutch my pearls or swoon at the sight of it. My grandmother on my father's side was Jewish, and he was also pragmatic about it. The symbol is not a monster hiding under our beds, it's a doodle of indentations we found on some pottery that we attached a scary significance to. Nothing more.

To say the devils name summons him. Don't walk under that ladder. Run, it's a black cat! Careful with that mirror! That penny is not heads up, so even though its supposed to be good to pick it up, I'll ignore it. Step on a crack..... *yawn*

It's the symbol that makes it heavier. Cus it's... you know... scary!

Yeah, sad that it was hijacked, spun around backwards and some scary colors were added, and now it's all bad news. I suppose some people out there would break the pot, because that somehow makes their memories easier to bear, or breaks the spell. Like a child throwing their broccoli on the floor.

Underestimate the power of symbolism at your own peril.

The Nazis' mastery over symbolism played no small part in their rise to power. They did everything with a sense of style and pageantry that made them look sophisticated and glamorous—which they were—notwithstanding the incontrovertible evils they perpetrated.

The swastika wasn't merely a pretty design they happened to put on their flag. It was a means by which they seized power. The symbols they used were at the heart of the rabid loyalty they inspired in their followers. To many people who suffered at the Nazis' hands, the symbol itself was at least partly responsible for that suffering.

 

[Matt B]

Underestimate the power of symbolism at your own peril.

The Nazis' mastery over symbolism played no small part in their rise to power. They did everything with a sense of style and pageantry that made them look sophisticated and glamorous—which they were—notwithstanding the incontrovertible evils they perpetrated.

The swastika wasn't merely a pretty design they happened to put on their flag. It was a means by which they seized power. The symbols they used were at the heart of the rabid loyalty they inspired in their followers. To many people who suffered at the Nazis' hands, the symbol itself was at least partly responsible for that suffering.

So what you're saying is that people like the Coca Cola trademark symbol better than they like the drink? People pay Starbucks $6 for mediocre coffee because they really dig the logo? Or is it that people like the product and since the logo represents the product, they like the logo?

The backwards colorized swastika is only a trademarked brand image. If the Nazis used the colorized image of a donkey's ass, it would be the same outcome. The regime was based on a ideology that was infectious, and a evil leader that capitalized on it. The image was an afterthought that became representative of the product. The product was racial purity, which was not exactly unique in history.Think of royal bloodlines, and even modern racism. But Hitler had a way with pushing the idea at a time when people could be convinced that their problems could be blamed on Jewish people. That's it. Naziism was McDonald's and The M was the swastika. Nobody has a negative emotional meltdown when they see the M, even though McDonald's peddles tremendously unhealthy food.

 

[Cajunrider]

It's the symbol that makes it heavier. Cus it's... you know... scary!

Yeah, sad that it was hijacked, spun around backwards and some scary colors were added, and now it's all bad news. I suppose some people out there would break the pot, because that somehow makes their memories easier to bear, or breaks the spell. Like a child throwing their broccoli on the floor.

Most people in Asia don't concede to the hijack. The symbol, with the correct rotation, is still accepted among us and is not regarded as a Nazi symbol.

 

[Gabler]

So what you're saying is that people like the Coca Cola trademark symbol better than they like the drink? People pay Starbucks $6 for mediocre coffee because they really dig the logo? Or is it that people like the product and since the logo represents the product, they like the logo?

No.

 

[Matt B]

Most people in Asia don't concede to the hijack. The symbol, with the correct rotation, is still accepted among us and is not regarded as a Nazi symbol.

That's refreshing. Things are getting stuffy in the US with political correctness, inclusion, overly emotional thought as opposed to rational, symbolism, and the complete abandonment of pragmatism. In short, we have surrendered ourselves to our emotions. I like a stubborn refusal to allow your heritage to be hijacked by modern emotionalism.

 

[Gabler]

No.

I'm talking about the language of symbolism and the ways it can be used to manipulate people.

You're sort of getting close with your comment about Starbucks coffee. People pay too much for it because of the logo, but it's not because they happen to like the design of the logo itself, but because of what they associate with the Starbucks logo.

The word "Starbucks" is itself a symbol, albeit a different type of symbol than the mermaid logo. Put differently, the word "Starbucks" is not a building where you get coffee. The word "Starbucks" is a pattern of dark spots on your phone or computer screen that represents many similar coffee and breakfast establishments. Moreover, the possible meanings vary from person to person and from one context to the next, including the building, the mechandise, the employees, the franchise, its good will, etc.

There's probably one weirdo out there who's really into that mermaid, and he gets the coffee to be able to hold her warm body in his own hands, but that's clearly not what we're talking about here. Most people who buy Starbucks coffee associate the logo with one or more positive past experiences, and that causes them to spend their money at buildings licensed to use the logo. The logo has power, but it's not the logo itself. It's all of the things we associate with the logo.

 

[Gabler]

That's refreshing. Things are getting stuffy in the US with political correctness, inclusion, overly emotional thought as opposed to rational, symbolism, and the complete abandonment of pragmatism. In short, we have surrendered ourselves to our emotions. I like a stubborn refusal to allow your heritage to be hijacked by modern emotionalism.

I agree that political correctness has gotten out of control, and I agree it's good that the East has refused to allow the symbol to be hijacked.

I'm trying to follow your list in the middle there. Are political correctness, inclusion, and emotional thought opposed to rational thought, symbolism, and the complete abandonment of pragmatism? I had thought you were opposed to symbolism and the abandonment of pragmatism. Was that a typo, or did I misunderstand what you were saying? I want to be sure I'm hearing what you have to say.

 

[Matt B]

I'm talking about the language of symbolism and the ways it can be used to manipulate people.

You're sort of getting close with your comment about Starbucks coffee. People pay too much for it because of the logo, but it's not because they happen to like the design of the logo itself, but because of what they associate with the Starbucks logo.

The word "Starbucks" is itself a symbol, albeit a different type of symbol than the mermaid logo. Put differently, the word "Starbucks" is not a building where you get coffee. The word "Starbucks" is a pattern of dark spots on your phone or computer screen that represents many similar coffee and breakfast establishments. Moreover, the possible meanings vary from person to person and from one context to the next, including the building, the mechandise, the employees, the franchise, its good will, etc.

There's probably one weirdo out there who's really into that mermaid, and he gets the coffee to be able to hold her warm body in his own hands, but that's clearly not what we're talking about here. Most people who buy Starbucks coffee associate the logo with one or more positive past experiences, and that causes them to spend their money at buildings licensed to use the logo. The logo has power, but it's not the logo itself. It's all of the things we associate with the logo.

But all of this is simply a branding. Take the Ferrari logo or the BMW logo. People do busines with a company where there is an expectation of excellence, based on a reputation of excellence. People know Ferrari by reputation, media coverage, history of winning races, famous people who drive them, advertisements and so on that Ferrari has a reputation for building spectacular cars, to the point that the company has a personality. Flashing their logo in all of these forms of public imaging is a form of programming. To people who are succeptable to being programmed, flashing that badge may, by association with the brand reputation, conjure feelings like flying around corners on the raw edge of control, and feeling g forces with the acceleration to the performance-minded. To fans of luxury, they may view that badge as endemic of cramped, uncomfortable cabins, too much noise and being uncivilized. To a soccer mom, it may symbolize a lack of storage, not enough drink holders, and an unnecessary waste of money for the rich. To a 60 year old newly divorced male, it may represent freedom and indulgence on what he never could have before.

The logo means something because people let themselves be programmed to associate the image with a brand, but the image itself means different things to different people, and is thereby meaningless. The brand reputation is what creates the feeling, not the symbol. The symbol is often based on something a business owner's kid scribbling in crayon, or by a doodle they saw somewhere and liked artistically, by a company meeting where everyone brings ideas, a brainstorming session, or a misguided interpretation of a crude stencil found on old pottery. If Ferrari had chosen a donkey's ass for a logo, people would associate that with the brand and expectation of excellence just as readily. I present you with the name and logo of a reputation for excellence in the industrial space cooling market, Big Ass Fans. They make big ass fans for warehouses. Their logo:

 

[Gabler]

...the image itself means different things to different people, and is thereby meaningless.

Ah. There we go. That's the point of disagreement. I would say that if something means different things to different people, then it is all the more rich with meaning.

The greatest works of literature are also the most difficult to understand, because they are packed with the most possible meaning per word, and that's a lot to unpack. Therefore, great works of literature necessarily mean different things to different people. That doesn't mean literature isn't a worthwhile pursuit; it just means that you can't empirically observe the meaning behind it.

That's not to say anything goes. Some interpretations are going to be better than others. In some instances, the difference in the quality of the analysis is stark, and it's plain to see which is better, but when two interpretations are very similar in profundity, you can't exactly measure them to see which one is deeper, so it remains somewhat subjective.

Which is the "better" interpretation of the swastika? The extermination of 17 million Jews, Gypsies, gays, and handicapped people on the basis of their supposed genetic inferiority or millennia of religious and cultural tradition? You can't exactly measure which one better fits the symbol, so both meanings will persist. As long as they do, you won't be able to use the symbol without conjuring the image of the gas chamber.