Pinus Pinea for a beginner

[Japonicus]

and cut needles off each year, leaving 50% .

do you mean cutting all needles half off or removing half of all the needles?

Darn, I was hoping my wording (cut needles off) didn't confuse that.
I think I clarified this later, sorry it didn't make the "cut"
Half of all the needles in the top half of the tree, like cutting the top and bottom needles off
of each branch down to the sheath. You can rub them off when they dry up, but cover the soil 1st
to benefit your clean up time when removing needles.
I say cut, because I do not know how pinea responds to needle plucking.
Needle plucking can also damage latent buds, but in your apex who cares if you're removing it?
You can try plucking to see if it bleeds or tears the skin like with some WP. Either way works.

 

[Japonicus]

@Wulfskaar is this approximately where you're wanting to cut back to?

Circled is the left upper branch I suggested to remove this Winter.
I'm just throwing out a more safe approach since there's not a ton of info
being the contrary subject pinea is.

ITALIAN STONE PINE; Pinus Pinea from nursery stock

2013 - long needles and internodes, leggy growth.

www.bonsainut.com

You've probably read this thread. I haven't, but the 2nd post @aframe from Santa Cruz, CA
hard pruned his in Winter.

 

[Wulfskaar]

@Wulfskaar is this approximately where you're wanting to cut back to?
View attachment 506139
Circled is the left upper branch I suggested to remove this Winter.
I'm just throwing out a more safe approach since there's not a ton of info
being the contrary subject pinea is.

ITALIAN STONE PINE; Pinus Pinea from nursery stock

2013 - long needles and internodes, leggy growth.

www.bonsainut.com

You've probably read this thread. I haven't, but the 2nd post @aframe from Santa Cruz, CA
hard pruned his in Winter.

I was actually thinking cutting lower, as I show in this comment: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/pinus-pinea-for-a-beginner.47215/post-955780

My idea was to get an umbrella type canopy using the lowest branches (which are also the weakest ones). Honestly, I've been too chicken to make any cuts since my initial cutting of the lowest branches back in 2020, so I've just kept letting it grow. I do realize I'm going to have to gamble at some point with major cuts, so I want to start forcing vigor/life downward instead of upward without killing the tree.

Here was @Esolin's idea on how to do that: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/i...us-pinea-from-nursery-stock.22187/post-955792

As far as repotting is concerned, I think I can wait until spring 2025 with no issues.

 

[Bonsai_Brett]

Well, I couldn't bring my self to remove the branches yet. This is the first year where it actually has healthy growth, so I decided to let it be for now.

What is the absolute best time of year to remove the upper main trunk branches so I can try to force vigor into the lower branches?


View attachment 448185

I pruned mine just a few weeks ago. It was the first pruning it received in three years of growing. I encountered some problems, not with the timing of the pruning, but having allowed it to grow for so long without occasional pruning, it developed some fungus. However, as I was researching, I came across a few sites that said fall was a good time to prune, before it goes through the “dormant season” so that it will be ready to go next growing season. I’m very new to this so take what I say as just my opinion.

The tree seems to be doing well but I don’t plan on doing anything more to it for a year at which point I might do a heavy pruning for shape. It’s interesting to consider the sap line when making a decision on how much to chop, hopefully it will back bud next growing season which will (if I understand correctly) preserve the sap line for focusing on lower growth.

Here is a pic after its first pruning(note: I also did it’s first repotting before pruning, it was very healthy aside from the unknown fungus):

 

[Bonsai_Brett]

It pretty much looks the same right now, except that the light green needles have darkened a bit.

I'm still having anxiety on cutting the branches of this tree because I have not been able to see any Pinus pinea that have survived drastic pruning like that.

Anyone know the IDEAL time of year to reduce branches on top in order to push vigor into the lower branches?

What I have heard from more experienced bonsai artists is to start small. Maybe just trim a few branches that you know you want to get rid of.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I pruned mine just a few weeks ago. It was the first pruning it received in three years of growing. I encountered some problems, not with the timing of the pruning, but having allowed it to grow for so long without occasional pruning, it developed some fungus. However, as I was researching, I came across a few sites that said fall was a good time to prune, before it goes through the “dormant season” so that it will be ready to go next growing season. I’m very new to this so take what I say as just my opinion.

The tree seems to be doing well but I don’t plan on doing anything more to it for a year at which point I might do a heavy pruning for shape. It’s interesting to consider the sap line when making a decision on how much to chop, hopefully it will back bud next growing season which will (if I understand correctly) preserve the sap line for focusing on lower growth.

Here is a pic after its first pruning(note: I also did it’s first repotting before pruning, it was very healthy aside from the unknown fungus):

Thanks Brett! It's good to know someone else is going through the journey too. I have also heard that fall is a good time to prune these and since there is very little info online, I'm also going to avoid heavy pruning. Keep us updated on your progress as we'll all learn from it!

 

[Bonsai_Brett]

Thanks Brett! It's good to know someone else is going through the journey too. I have also heard that fall is a good time to prune these and since there is very little info online, I'm also going to avoid heavy pruning. Keep us updated on your progress as we'll all learn from it!

Perhaps you have already found this website, but in case you didn’t, it provided me a little info about pruning, etc.

Italian Stone Pine Tree Care - Tips For Growing Italian Stone Pine Trees

Gardeners around the world are growing Italian stone pine trees. Once the tree is established, care for Italian stone pine is minimal. Italian stone pine tree growing requires little water or fertilizer. Read this article for more Italian stone pine information.

www.gardeningknowhow.com

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Wulfskaar - be brave, just go ahead and do the chop, get it over and done with. As long as you leave branches on at least 3 or 4 sides of the trunk to keep pulling moisture up through the roots, chopping 70% off is not problem. If you feel nervous, just chop off 50 % now then 12 months from now chop the remainder to your desired height. But stop dragging your feet. Unless you think your trunk is too slender. But if your trunk is thick enough, go for it. Pinus pinea is a vigorous tree capable of multiple flushes of growth per year, it is not a delicate high elevation pine. You live in a climate similar to the native climate for Pinus pinea, you should be able to get away with aggressive pruning.

Listen to @Arnold - he comes from an island covered with these pines. He knows how they grow.

 

[Wulfskaar]

@Wulfskaar - be brave, just go ahead and do the chop, get it over and done with. As long as you leave branches on at least 3 or 4 sides of the trunk to keep pulling moisture up through the roots, chopping 70% off is not problem. If you feel nervous, just chop off 50 % now then 12 months from now chop the remainder to your desired height. But stop dragging your feet. Unless you think your trunk is too slender. But if your trunk is thick enough, go for it. Pinus pinea is a vigorous tree capable of multiple flushes of growth per year, it is not a delicate high elevation pine. You live in a climate similar to the native climate for Pinus pinea, you should be able to get away with aggressive pruning.

Listen to @Arnold - he comes from an island covered with these pines. He knows how they grow.

Thank you Leo! I will be pruning in the next month or two (fall here). You're right, of course, I need to just go for it at some point.

 

[Bonsai_Brett]

@Wulfskaar - be brave, just go ahead and do the chop, get it over and done with. As long as you leave branches on at least 3 or 4 sides of the trunk to keep pulling moisture up through the roots, chopping 70% off is not problem. If you feel nervous, just chop off 50 % now then 12 months from now chop the remainder to your desired height. But stop dragging your feet. Unless you think your trunk is too slender. But if your trunk is thick enough, go for it. Pinus pinea is a vigorous tree capable of multiple flushes of growth per year, it is not a delicate high elevation pine. You live in a climate similar to the native climate for Pinus pinea, you should be able to get away with aggressive pruning.

Listen to @Arnold - he comes from an island covered with these pines. He knows how they grow.

@Wulfskaar I agree, worst case scenario you get a learning experience and get to share your experience with the rest of the community. Best case scenario, you get the kick ass bonsai design you were hoping for.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Recovering from a massive scale infestation.

It had very limited growth this year and I really need to start chopping off branches and then cleaning the scale off manually from the remaining ones.

 

[Wulfskaar]

@Wulfskaar - be brave, just go ahead and do the chop, get it over and done with. As long as you leave branches on at least 3 or 4 sides of the trunk to keep pulling moisture up through the roots, chopping 70% off is not problem. If you feel nervous, just chop off 50 % now then 12 months from now chop the remainder to your desired height. But stop dragging your feet. Unless you think your trunk is too slender. But if your trunk is thick enough, go for it. Pinus pinea is a vigorous tree capable of multiple flushes of growth per year, it is not a delicate high elevation pine. You live in a climate similar to the native climate for Pinus pinea, you should be able to get away with aggressive pruning.

Listen to @Arnold - he comes from an island covered with these pines. He knows how they grow.

Hi Leo. I have removed most of the branches above where I want to chop and left just a few on top. The chop location is visible in the last pic where the guy wire loops around the trunk.

Most of the branches were heavily diseased with scale, blackened and many of the needles dying or dead. I definitely removed 70% of the foliage. I guess it's sink or swim time for this tree. It will either live or die at this point.

My hope is that the lower branches will now be getting a lot more growth and then next year I will be able to start wiring them into better positions.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Hope! I butchered the tree in Dec 2023 and cleaned as much of the scale and dead needles as I could from the remaining branches.

Just today I noticed tiny white dots on many of the lower branches. After zooming in as far as my phone camera could zoom, I have found that they are buds that are just beginning to swell!



Also, if it appears that some of the previous growth is starting to pick up a bit. All of this is giving me hope that the tree might survive the butchering.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Did you get rid of the scale yet? If not consider resorting to chemical warfare. If you can not find a appropriate pesticide at your local box store. A systemic might be needed.

www.hummert.com

Chemicals | Hummert International

www.hummert.com

Hummert will ship pretty much nation wide. I use them regularly for source of Insect juvenile growth hormone interrupters and other Integrated Pest Management type chemicals

 

[Wulfskaar]

Did you get rid of the scale yet? If not consider resorting to chemical warfare. If you can not find a appropriate pesticide at your local box store. A systemic might be needed.

www.hummert.com

Chemicals | Hummert International

www.hummert.com

Hummert will ship pretty much nation wide. I use them regularly for source of Insect juvenile growth hormone interrupters and other Integrated Pest Management type chemicals

I manually cleaned off the scale. Most of the black residue is gone. I also removed dead needles, many of which were black.

My plan is to spray it several times over the course of this spring when, I read, the scale insects are in the crawling phase and most vulnerable to pesticides.

Also, since there is relatively few branches compared to what it was before, I will be keeping a very close eye on the bug situation.

The good news is that it appears to be back-budding all over the lower branches now, so it ain't dead yet!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Sounds good

 

[Wulfskaar]

Update:
The top branches I left intact are pushing out 3-5 candles per tip.

The low branches have new juvenile growth and some back-budding. The back-budding is happening all over the tree, which is good to know, including on old wood.

Last year's scale infestation is gone, but need to watch for new infestation.

Current plan:
Allow the bottom (future of tree) to keep growing. Maybe prune off the top candles to help rebalance vigor to the lower branches.

Chop the top once the bottom has better growth and vigor (fall?).

Wire the lower branches up to a much steeper angle to begin developing the branches.

Pic from 1 month ago. Candles on top are longer now. Future cut will be at red line.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Update:
The needles that were blackened due to last year's scale attack have turned orange. I removed most of it.

There is no visible scale this year.

The lower branches have grown some juvenile needles since spring, but the top is still the strongest by far.

Plan:
Not sure when to do the chop... this fall or next.

Once the bottom branches gain additional strength, begin to shorten branches, prune unwanted branches, and wire.

 

[Alexandraintn]

I just purchased an Italian Stone Pine (Pinus Pinea) that I intend to make into a bonsai and need advice.
My vision of this would be to have it morph into a natural-looking, but not extreme, umbrella shape, as seen in nature.

I read that late fall/early winter is a good time to trim and repotting can happen in spring before a growth cycle. Is this correct?

Should I trim heavily or lightly (or not at all) now? I am thinking about removing all branches up past the first crook of the trunk. Also, I'm thinking the branches need to be thinned out a lot.

It's got some crazy-looking roots as well, but I'm sure I would have to wait on dealing with roots until spring.

Am I on the right track with this?


View attachment 343753View attachment 343754

Wow that's a nice one. I'd be running from the store just frantic to get it home. Great find. Do update on the progress.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Good progress. The top sacrifice will always be the strongest. It’s the nature of the tree.

Wait until the weather has cooled off, then chop.

Do you plan for a new sacrifice to thicken the trunk while creating critical mass and pushing back below?

Cheers
DSD sends