Pine repot and refining plan

[maroun.c]

there is so much inspiration in your country, but mostly i see you asking for advice to style your trees even the olives and cedars which grow wild in your location.

Indeed, unfortunately most trees have been "manipulated" but agriculture needs or habits. Mostly for pine and olives. A pine for me was always a long trunk and a broom.... I was surprised with the multiple reaction on the long nude trunks, made me realize its not the norm. Indeed I need to go more in the woods and observe trees that have grown wild for inspiration, yet not sure if that would make for acceptable bonsais.

 

[maroun.c]

I think there's more than watering involved here. More probably you kill them from potting-down too much/too fast and the trees become more susceptible to watering errors, et al. If you buy them in pots, don't repot until and unless you can keep them alive in situ for at least one complete year. Then, repot at the proper time assuming that you will take another repot step down one or more years later. We do not expect a tree to become a show-able tree in the first potting down-sizing, or even the second, why should we assume that it needs to be in a show-able size pot any sooner than the top is show-able? (I'm assuming a lot about your procedure.)

Unfortunately my area is more humid than his and many trees deteriorated and died even before I touched them around 6 months to a year mark. Repoting has gone bad so far for pines and cedars, I have worked a lot on my technique and gonsuper gentle on the roots yet can still need to do better maybe , also timing has been tricky so far especially that my cold winter isn't as cold as spring or autumn so I might be a bit off still in my timing.
For nursery trees its true I'm a bit in a rush to get them in smaller pots on the bench mainly due to space issues but I have learned the lesson to not buy so many trees and take time on each

 

[sorce]

And inorganic soil is a very very sensitive topic to him.

You shouldn't find yourself forced to believe in inorganic soil because it's spouted here, you are the only one from there.

For me, a topic isn't sensitive, just strongly held belief, until one foolishly tries to hold a stance against...what seems to be 30years of success.

I'm not saying that is what happens between you, but if you hold a stance with half the weight of inorganic soil you hear here, it would make it "sensitive" for me. This is only the best place to learn bonsai if you have much salt to take it with, observe the caveats.

I know I go against when people tell me not to reinvent the wheel, it's because I'm not reinventing the wheel, but rather, noticing a missing spoke that, if replaced, would make the wheel spin more true.

If you are killing his trees by watering them, it seems to me, you haven't enough information about your local wheel, to attempt things outside of what works, for now. Try to replace one spoke at a time, rather than using a different wheel.

I want to see your wheel spinning.

Bandaid....lol... there's like 6 words with a wrong letter up yonder, odd for you.

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

Indeed, unfortunately most trees have been "manipulated" but agriculture needs or habits. Mostly for pine and olives. A pine for me was always a long trunk and a broom.... I was surprised with the multiple reaction on the long nude trunks, made me realize its not the norm. Indeed I need to go more in the woods and observe trees that have grown wild for inspiration, yet not sure if that would make for acceptable bonsais.

There is a pine called umbrella pine that also grows in your area of the world and they grow very much as your impression of pines having a lomg trunk with foliage at the top.

 

[Forsoothe!]

There is a pine called umbrella pine that also grows in your area of the world and they grow very much as your impression of pines having a lomg trunk with foliage at the top.

Those look to me like the archetype Italian Stone Pine.

 

[maroun.c]

Took a longer walk in the woods this morning to the now "Giraffe" land and the scenery and shape of trees changes.
Weirdly this group on a more exposed hill had the same long trunks, not sure if man or wind made.

 

[maroun.c]

Looking closer at older trees, I guess it explains why people manage pines by cutting down all lower branching. They all had complete dead foliage and many broken dead branches on lower part as if the tree feels they dont photosynthesis as much as the top and simply let them go. Even on some of the exposed trees where lower part does get decent sun exposure all lower branches were dead.
Passages are also completely blocked by trees without cleaned trunks which is a also a reason.
Now that I think about this it justifies where most nursery pine material I find has long bare trunks, as it seems the norm for those unfortunately for our bonsai needs

 

[Forsoothe!]

When I was young I wondered why people who were born in warm areas of the world would come to places like Michigan to live with our long winters. I have always been a gardener of sorts here where our roads wind around lakes, pass over rivers and streams, and cut through the green countryside fields and forests, -our green canyons. Now that I have seen how difficult it is to grow stuff elsewhere I understand completely.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

looks like a mixture of Pinus pinea and Pinus halepensis or brutia, I like the halepensis a bit more for bonsai, the pinea its pretty dificult unles you use juvenile needles

 

[Vance Wood]

Got this pine a few months back, previous owner had worked out the oad but with very bad styling, branches severly bent over each other and 3s and 4s coming from same point as well as bottom.and top branches used. Branches seem long and straight and only at the tip the last tertiary branches form the pads.
Plan is to repot in a non glazed brown deeper abd larger pot, rectangle with corners to match the masculine e shape of the base. I will repot lat jan early Feb bare rooting 2/6 of rootball to hopefully not kill it.
It was labeled pinus nigra and owner told me its a local tree of about 30 years. It is multi flush I believe as it is having its second flush this year . When would you advise to cleanup the branches and start working on refining the pads? This will involve reducing the branches so not sure if I should do it now or 1 year after repot. Also need to wire it to move branches a bit but also to refine tertiary branches, as I will be repoting 3 times next 6 years to get it out of nursery soil when do u think is OK to wire prune and do branch work ? I am fertilizing a bit to get it in good shape for next year repot but it looks pretty healthy..
Should I decandle as the buds push this time to hopefully start having some backbudding ?
Appreciate any input on how to take this tree forward
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You're making the same mistake the original owner made, marching down the styling highway without having an idea of what you are doing. Your best choice would be to put the tree into a colander for a couple of years to gain strength and make good roots while giving you an opportunity to learn about the tree and the art. In a few years you will be able and equiped to deal with this tree successfully.

 

[maroun.c]

You're making the same mistake the original owner made, marching down the styling highway without having an idea of what you are doing. Your best choice would be to put the tree into a colander for a couple of years to gain strength and make good roots while giving you an opportunity to learn about the tree and the art. In a few years you will be able and equiped to deal with this tree successfully.

Makes sense as I have a few branches at the middle of the tree that i need to develop, believe a large pot will allow for that much faster.

 

[maroun.c]

You're making the same mistake the original owner made, marching down the styling highway without having an idea of what you are doing. Your best choice would be to put the tree into a colander for a couple of years to gain strength and make good roots while giving you an opportunity to learn about the tree and the art. In a few years you will be able and equiped to deal with this tree successfully.

Will be cleaning the branches (taking out top and bottom branches ) and in jan-feb will move tree to this much larger pot and cleaning up a small portion of the limited root ball it has. Will fertilize have from now till then and for 2-3 years in that pot where hopefully tree will grow the branches i want to grow so I can finalise styling. Will also decide by then on whether I should shorten trunk or maybe try to bend it to add some motion.
Will this pit size be enough? Prefer not to have trees in colander as they don't balance well and can't be kept on the bench,(trees on ground level are a no no with our dog )
Thanks all for all the advice.

 

[Paradox]

It will be fine in that pot

 

[maroun.c]

Ended up moving tree to new pot, plan was to repot in jan but this year winter was so extreme that march (typically spring ) felt as cold as a usual jan. Repotted 8 Mar before buds started opening.
Tree similar to previous trees I got from same source, had very compacted soil, long roots mat growing below screens.
Had killed some trees cutting those to the screens as soils had limited other roots . So this time I carefully tweeted all the roots and moved tree to a much larger put for it to regrow its roots, recover energy and grow for a style change.
Made sure to leave a small portion untouched.


Notice the majority of the roots alive below screen yet some.roots in soil which tells me that I'm better now at watering trees in this soil I'm getting them in before I move them to my soil mix or it could just be that this tree had better strength and roots than the 5-6 other ones.
I also planted it a bit deeper in soil to deal with aerial roots and hopefully get a good new rootbase I can cut back to in future to reduce rootbal length.
So far tree showing no issues at all after repot and buds just started opening. I misted it ( just hoping that helps but realize it doesn't do much for punes) and kept in shade for 2 weeks then gradually moved to full sun

 

[maroun.c]

At this stage have these questions:
With tree in much bigger pot now, which I assume will be filled with roots, how to re-reduce rootball in 2-3 years when I move it to its smaller final pot ?

I'll be taking out overlapping branches in the pads next year after tree recovers from re potting, do I do it later this autumn or next year early spring.

Styling, I wanted to grow this tree to Mimic local pines but shape and branch positioning is clearly different so going for a bonsai shape. As tree curves to the right I feel.i should grow branches on the right and compress ones on the left and have apex on the right side (also apex on compact side, left in this case is also possible)
Any input on this ?