Picea Abies (Dwarf Norway Spruce)

[just.wing.it]

Did you attempt to repot the tree or did it die before you got to that stage? I’m starting to find, particularly with nursery conifers, that the safest route is to repot first, before you prune much of anything off. And then style a year or two down the road. I also have the feeling that this will save you time in the long run.

I would say that one of your possible mistakes with this one was pruning the spring growth after aggressively pruning the tree in the fall. Seems like it didn’t get much of a break from the scissors. If I do heavy structural pruning in the fall with my spruces that are in the early development stage, I do not touch them with scissors again until the following fall. Just my approach. Once into the refinement stage of course would be pinching spring growth but that’s a different story.

Never got there...
And yes, I agree. .
Maybe I'll try again later.

 

[Vance Wood]

If I read your posts correctly I think your problem was trying to induce a third flush of growth. You simply pushed the tree beyond its ability to support itself.

 

[just.wing.it]

If I read your posts correctly I think your problem was trying to induce a third flush of growth. You simply pushed the tree beyond its ability to support itself.

Well, I didnt try....it just happened...
But you're correct sir.

My other one which I didn't cut back also didn't have any root work done...

These trees were some of the ones that put me into the "Nebari First" category now.

I'm working bottom up on everything now...

 

[0soyoung]

In the spring, @just.wing.it, I suggest that you do nothing or, at most just pinch out the end of the new shoot about the time the bud sheath comes off. Foliage productivity declines fairly rapidly with age, which is to say that the new foliage is what generates most of the tree's roots and general vigor.

New buds will appear at the ends and maybe various places along the shoot not long after the summer solstice. One can cut back to any of these to shorten the extension of the canopy and induce back budding. IMHO, one should wait until late summer / early fall to cut back to a bud if they want a stronger, more vigorously growing tree. Conversely, pruning earlier reduces vigor/strength. Thus, as the tree moves toward full development, I think one's pruning schedule will move from late toward early summer.

 

[Adair M]

In the spring, @just.wing.it, I suggest that you do nothing or, at most just pinch out the end of the new shoot about the time the bud sheath comes off. Foliage productivity declines fairly rapidly with age, which is to say that the new foliage is what generates most of the tree's roots and general vigor.

New buds will appear at the ends and maybe various places along the shoot not long after the summer solstice. One can cut back to any of these to shorten the extension of the canopy and induce back budding. IMHO, one should wait until late summer / early fall to cut back to a bud if they want a stronger, more vigorously growing tree. Conversely, pruning earlier reduces vigor/strength. Thus, as the tree moves toward full development, I think one's pruning schedule will move from late toward early summer.

Osoyoung, you win the Internet today! You are absolutely correct! Spruce should NOT be pinched in spring! They should be allowed to grow out and harden off. They will produce little side shoots and buds all on their own. Mid to late summer is the time to “cut back” to one of those back buds.

Edited to add: the goal of cutting back is NOT to induce a “second flush”. These are not JBP. The goal of the cutting back is to encourage the buds closer to the trunk to stay active, and keep the branches from getting too long. If you get a second flush, you cut back too soon!

And, it’s also true that most spruce live in wetter locations. Certainly not swamps, but places where there’s humidity, and cooler nights so that water condenses on the foliage overnight. These trees would benefit from frequent misting, shade cloth in the summer, misting at sunset. They take in water from the foliage as much as they do from the roots.

 

[0soyoung]

They take in water from the foliage as much as they do from the roots.

Too much of an exaggeration, I think.

 

[just.wing.it]

Osoyoung, you win the Internet today! You are absolutely correct! Spruce should NOT be pinched in spring! They should be allowed to grow out and harden off. They will produce little side shoots and buds all on their own. Mid to late summer is the time to “cut back” to one of those back buds.

Edited to add: the goal of cutting back is NOT to induce a “second flush”. These are not JBP. The goal of the cutting back is to encourage the buds closer to the trunk to stay active, and keep the branches from getting too long. If you get a second flush, you cut back too soon!

And, it’s also true that most spruce live in wetter locations. Certainly not swamps, but places where there’s humidity, and cooler nights so that water condenses on the foliage overnight. These trees would benefit from frequent misting, shade cloth in the summer, misting at sunset. They take in water from the foliage as much as they do from the roots.

In the spring, @just.wing.it, I suggest that you do nothing or, at most just pinch out the end of the new shoot about the time the bud sheath comes off. Foliage productivity declines fairly rapidly with age, which is to say that the new foliage is what generates most of the tree's roots and general vigor.

New buds will appear at the ends and maybe various places along the shoot not long after the summer solstice. One can cut back to any of these to shorten the extension of the canopy and induce back budding. IMHO, one should wait until late summer / early fall to cut back to a bud if they want a stronger, more vigorously growing tree. Conversely, pruning earlier reduces vigor/strength. Thus, as the tree moves toward full development, I think one's pruning schedule will move from late toward early summer.

I'm sure I'll try again.
I'm being more selective about material now...so not sure when I'll get another...

Thanks guys!

 

[Adair M]

Too much of an exaggeration, I think.

Perhaps. My source for this information is Tyler Sherrod. He worked extensively with Ezo Spruce in Japan with Shinji Suzuki. They treat them this way. He also has Red Spruce (amongst others) at his home in North Carolina. And he treats his Reds like that. He told me that misting is as (if not more!) important than watering!

I’m not going to argue with his success.

 

[0soyoung]

I'm sure I'll try again.
I'm being more selective about material now...so not sure when I'll get another...

On one hand, I understand and share your feelings.
On the other, are you sure this isn't just avoidance of something you ought to learn anyway?

 

[Vance Wood]

Osoyoung, you win the Internet today! You are absolutely correct! Spruce should NOT be pinched in spring! They should be allowed to grow out and harden off. They will produce little side shoots and buds all on their own. Mid to late summer is the time to “cut back” to one of those back buds.

Edited to add: the goal of cutting back is NOT to induce a “second flush”. These are not JBP. The goal of the cutting back is to encourage the buds closer to the trunk to stay active, and keep the branches from getting too long. If you get a second flush, you cut back too soon!

And, it’s also true that most spruce live in wetter locations. Certainly not swamps, but places where there’s humidity, and cooler nights so that water condenses on the foliage overnight. These trees would benefit from frequent misting, shade cloth in the summer, misting at sunset. They take in water from the foliage as much as they do from the roots.

Thank You Adair: I don't know how many quasi-masters I have encountered who are great advocates of not misting the needles on any conifer for any reason. Personally I mist everything, and everything seems to enjoy it. The point is not to over do it.

 

[just.wing.it]

On one hand, I understand and share your feelings.
On the other, are you sure this isn't just avoidance of something you ought to learn anyway?

Maybe...
My benches are in a poor spot, I need to build a permanent bench here at my new place....hard to find time...
I also need a shady area, which will have to be made by me...
Haven't taken on any new trees since moving, because this year has been awful on my trees...lost a few...bad case of fungus hit my deciduous hard recently...gotta get sorted out over here, next year will be better.
Hope to build benches this fall.

 

[Adair M]

Maybe...
My benches are in a poor spot, I need to build a permanent bench here at my new place....hard to find time...
I also need a shady area, which will have to be made by me...
Haven't taken on any new trees since moving, because this year has been awful on my trees...lost a few...bad case of fungus hit my deciduous hard recently...gotta get sorted out over here, next year will be better.
Hope to build benches this fall.

Sorry to hear that.

One more thing about spruce: they appear to be far more delicate than most pines. It’s far better to go slow, remove only 25% of the foliage that you want to remove, for example.

Also, I don’t know if you followed any of the posts about the dwarf Mugo pine, but I have found that dwarf cultivars of anything react poorly to hard pruning.

I can’t begin to explain the “science” behind that statement, but it’s a lesson I’ve learned over the past 45 years of messin’ with little trees.

 

[wireme]

Hi Mike! Found this thread on a search I had to tweak. Searched the one I got today, piece Abies Little Gem no results.
Then dwarf Norway Spruce got a few hits. The Little Gem is, well let me just paste the quote from
http://conifersociety.org/conifers/conifer/picea/abies/little-gem/
"This cultivar originated as a witch’s broom that developed in the late 1950s on a specimen of Picea abies ‘Nidiformis’, the Bird’s Nest spruce, which itself was a witch’s broom that had been found on a Norway spruce. F.J. Grootendorst and Sons Nursery of Boskoop the Netherlands is credited with the broom’s discovery, nomination and introduction to the nursery trade."

Your Nidiformis seems a bit more vigorous perhaps? Do you know the growth rate? What I found at that link is 1-6"/yr
where the Little Gem is <1"/yr and <12" after 10 yrs. The foliage is so short and dense that removal will be painstakingly slow
and still, will probably remove some advantageous branches by accident.

I have a couple little gem spruce. Incredibley cool tiny needles if you could find one with a trunk it could be great.

Here’s a thread on mine. Used it for a contest tree, wasn’t nice to it, did things to it that seem to kill any other spruce on this forum but didnt harrass it for a while after and it recovered.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-boxstore-tree-progression.16674/

Here it is just now. Currently in the process of ground layering or slowly being strangled to death by encircling wire under the soil, I’m betting it will layer.

 

[Japonicus]

I have a couple little gem spruce. Incredibley cool tiny needles if you could find one with a trunk it could be great.

Here’s a thread on mine. Used it for a contest tree, wasn’t nice to it, did things to it that seem to kill any other spruce on this forum but didnt harrass it for a while after and it recovered.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-boxstore-tree-progression.16674/

Here it is just now. Currently in the process of ground layering or slowly being strangled to death by encircling wire under the soil, I’m betting it will layer.

Good morning wireme and thanks for the reply. I will start a thread on mine today as I've been teetering on whether to return mine or keep it.
It's so dense growing naturally, that what is not obvious from the pictures, is the foliage could support a medicine ball.

YES! That's exactly the Spruce I have. Yours must be rather old given the height.
I'll check out your thread on it, thanks for the link.

 

[stu929]

I have a couple little gem spruce. Incredibley cool tiny needles if you could find one with a trunk it could be great.

Here’s a thread on mine. Used it for a contest tree, wasn’t nice to it, did things to it that seem to kill any other spruce on this forum but didnt harrass it for a while after and it recovered.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-boxstore-tree-progression.16674/

Here it is just now. Currently in the process of ground layering or slowly being strangled to death by encircling wire under the soil, I’m betting it will layer. View attachment 208315View attachment 208316

Necro post I know. But I’m curious about this tree? Any updates? I have two trees that I think fall into this group.

Blue Nest Spruce and a Little Gem Norway. Both have nice thick trunks I’m just trying to figure out what to do with them lol.

Any updates from anyone that may have a nest or little gem?