One month of research and I have questions

[colley614]

Watching videos on the Internet to learn bonsai is not a great way to learn much. It greatly depends on who is doing the vid. There are quite a few idiots out there with no experience doing "teaching" vids when in fact they're just showing off. At this point, you don't need an artist to explain anything. You need a horticulturalist to explain how the tree is going to grow, as well as the ins and outs of adapting that growth pattern to maximize your care of the tree. "Designing" this tree is about six steps ahead of things at this point for both trees. This is all about trunk development, that first three inches of the tree, the rest is optional.

Yeah, I totally understand what you're saying about 'YouTube experts'. I literally watch these videos thinking 'this is your opinion, not necessarily the right opinion.' I have joined a local club where there are two extremely knowable guys there who display their trees at big exhibitions regularly. These two run regular workshops on tree physiology which I will be attending.

 

[sorce]

if I could put it in the ground I would

Or would you?

Lol!

I just came here to make a joke about how part 2 to this thread is titled...

"2 months of research, questioning my old questions with more questions."

You won't be sure the ground is the best somewhere between day 46 and 57. But then you'll come back to it in your research about Elms between days 211 and 239.

No matter what.

Asking the trees the questions is the best thing to do.

Start looking at old wounds on real trees and see if you can identify which trunks grew stronger because of that.

The future is already laid out in the trees past.
We must only read it.

Sorce

 

[colley614]

Or would you?

Lol!

I just came here to make a joke about how part 2 to this thread is titled...

"2 months of research, questioning my old questions with more questions."

You won't be sure the ground is the best somewhere between day 46 and 57. But then you'll come back to it in your research about Elms between days 211 and 239.

No matter what.

Asking the trees the questions is the best thing to do.

Start looking at old wounds on real trees and see if you can identify which trunks grew stronger because of that.

The future is already laid out in the trees past.
We must only read it.

Sorce

I bought the tree hoping to make an informal upright out of it some time down the road. I've took the 2 branches I assumed would hinder this and wired the trunk in the start of the shape I want. My plan now is to water and feed it and forget about it and let it grow out.

Apart from that I plan on doing more research and attending my local clubs workshops and hopefully some exhibitions.

 

[colley614]

This is all about trunk development, that first three inches of the tree, the rest is optional.

I know I have already replied to this but it's been playing on my mind over the last day or so. This is exactly what I'm trying to achieve at the moment. Those first 3 inches of trunk. That's why I cut them two branches because a reply to this thread left me thinking I don't want 2 dirty big scars there in a few years. I'd rather do it now and let it start the healing process. If it costs me another years growth I accepted that. I've wired above this bit but only to get the tree growing in a rough shape I was aiming at. As soon as it is in that position I will remove that wire. But like the quote says it's all about the first 3 inches, that's what I want to focus on feeding and watering that and getting it thicker.

 

[rockm]

I know I have already replied to this but it's been playing on my mind over the last day or so. This is exactly what I'm trying to achieve at the moment. Those first 3 inches of trunk. That's why I cut them two branches because a reply to this thread left me thinking I don't want 2 dirty big scars there in a few years. I'd rather do it now and let it start the healing process. If it costs me another years growth I accepted that. I've wired above this bit but only to get the tree growing in a rough shape I was aiming at. As soon as it is in that position I will remove that wire. But like the quote says it's all about the first 3 inches, that's what I want to focus on feeding and watering that and getting it thicker.

But, doing that takes the focus off of the trunk. It's not necessary and slows trunk thickening down. The more top growth present, the bigger and faster the development of the trunk/nebari. You're overthinking and overestimating the scar. The scars left behind will heal when those branches are taken, they will also produce the next set of finer branching you will work on...

You can't think in terms of one or two years year. You have to think in five-10-20. You're hung up on scarring. Shouldn't be at this early point. That's for working out later. You're not going to have a decent tree for a decade or so.

Take a spin through here, particularly the last couple of posts...

Developing Taper

Hey folks. I’m a bit confused about the whole concept of developing taper on trees. I understand the process of grow, chop, grow, chop, grow chop, etc. but I’m not 100% sure of the process so I’ve broken it down. I believe the recommendation is to grow the first part of your trunk until it...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[colley614]

But, doing that takes the focus off of the trunk. It's not necessary and slows trunk thickening down. The more top growth present, the bigger and faster the development of the trunk/nebari. You're overthinking and overestimating the scar. The scars left behind will heal when those branches are taken, they will also produce the next set of finer branching you will work on...

You can't think in terms of one or two years year. You have to think in five-10-20. You're hung up on scarring. Shouldn't be at this early point. That's for working out later. You're not going to have a decent tree for a decade or so.

Take a spin through here, particularly the last couple of posts...

Developing Taper

Hey folks. I’m a bit confused about the whole concept of developing taper on trees. I understand the process of grow, chop, grow, chop, grow chop, etc. but I’m not 100% sure of the process so I’ve broken it down. I believe the recommendation is to grow the first part of your trunk until it...

www.bonsainut.com

I feel like every action I take has a consequence I can learn from.

I am really interested in learning to taper. I am also starting to wonder if I misunderstand developing juniper trees. For example, with maple I understand that you should let the tree grow mad and then hard prune it back to little more than a stump and then let it go mad again and repeat this process year after year to develop the movement and taper in the trunk. Now I'm wondering should I be doing something similar with this Juniper as I got the impression that with juniper it was a case of fine pruning and wiring what is already there with no hard pruning?

 

[MHBonsai]

I highly recommend Mirai's beginner series. Great info on how to get started:

Bonsai Beginner Series

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[rockm]

I feel like every action I take has a consequence I can learn from.

I am really interested in learning to taper. I am also starting to wonder if I misunderstand developing juniper trees. For example, with maple I understand that you should let the tree grow mad and then hard prune it back to little more than a stump and then let it go mad again and repeat this process year after year to develop the movement and taper in the trunk. Now I'm wondering should I be doing something similar with this Juniper as I got the impression that with juniper it was a case of fine pruning and wiring what is already there with no hard pruning?

It's true you can't work the juniper like a deciduous tree. the juniper you have isn't really worth doing anything with at this point. It needs at least five years of inground growth to fatten up the trunk. Fine pruning the juniper as it is now will make for a spindly looking tree.

here's a pretty good primer on junipers for beginners--note the trunk of the juniper involved...

Bonsai Advice For Beginners | Bonsai Learning Center

 

[colley614]

It's true you can't work the juniper like a deciduous tree. the juniper you have isn't really worth doing anything with at this point. It needs at least five years of inground growth to fatten up the trunk. Fine pruning the juniper as it is now will make for a spindly looking tree.

here's a pretty good primer on junipers for beginners--note the trunk of the juniper involved...

Bonsai Advice For Beginners | Bonsai Learning Center

Thank you. I don't plan on touching it now until it has thickened out considerably (apart from removing the wire I used to get the trunk into position). I can't plant it the ground as I have no ground hence why I planted it in a tub. I have a paved yard and with this in mind what would be the best thing to grow it out in?

 

[rockm]

Thank you. I don't plan on touching it now until it has thickened out considerably (apart from removing the wire I used to get the trunk into position). I can't plant it the ground as I have no ground hence why I planted it in a tub. I have a paved yard and with this in mind what would be the best thing to grow it out in?

A tub is fine. Starting out with larger stock is better if you don't have the room to plant things out.

 

[colley614]

A tub is fine. Starting out with larger stock is better if you don't have the room to plant things out.

I mean I have 3 big 100 litre tubs. One has a 60-70 year old rose the other 2 have compost and a few weeds. I could plant my juniper and maple in these and let them grow?

 

[rockm]

I mean I have 3 big 100 litre tubs. One has a 60-70 year old rose the other 2 have compost and a few weeds. I could plant my juniper and maple in these and let them grow?

The problem with tubs is drainage. For the most part, they stay too wet and can actually slow growth down. The bigger the container, the wetter the soil will remain. A small tree in a big container is the worst situation, as the volume of soil stays extremely soggy as the small root mass is reluctant to move out into wet soil. Growing containers should be only about a third or a little larger than the original root mass. As the tree develops, larger containers...

 

[colley614]

The problem with tubs is drainage. For the most part, they stay too wet and can actually slow growth down. The bigger the container, the wetter the soil will remain. A small tree in a big container is the worst situation, as the volume of soil stays extremely soggy as the small root mass is reluctant to move out into wet soil. Growing containers should be only about a third or a little larger than the original root mass. As the tree develops, larger containers...

I've just been thinking trees in the wild never get soaking wet roots because the trees foliage stops most of the rain getting to the roots. Even on a day of heavy rain hardly any water breaches the canopy. I guess osmosis plays a part in watering trees.

 

[rockm]

I've just been thinking trees in the wild never get soaking wet roots because the trees foliage stops most of the rain getting to the roots. Even on a day of heavy rain hardly any water breaches the canopy. I guess osmosis plays a part in watering trees.

The ground has almost infinite drainage capabilities, except for swamps. top foliage really has nothing to do with it. It's all about the soil underneath. Heavy rain penetrates the top canopy pretty quickly. It drains away to lower spots in the landscape--and there are almost infinite ways for all that rain to drain away. Not so in a pot. In a container, drainage capacity is mostly negated. Others can better explain the science.

 

[sorce]

reply to this thread left me thinking I don't want 2 dirty big scars there in a few years.

Not removing branches on a juniper when theyre small leaves scars that take forever to heal when the branches get big and have to be removed.

It's a true statement, however, junipers ARE Shari and Deadwood. So you don't have to worry about it too much.

Training Follows growth habits.

It's why it's always good to allow your tree one year of free growth to watch growth habits. But, we can't do that so get 40 extra!

A Maple and a Juniper are great to ponder in regards to growth habits and training since they fall on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Because of Junipers Deadwood features, one can be left to its own devices for years, and be revisited to make a "tree" in one day.

You will never come to a Maple left to its own devices that you can cut a little, slap some wire on, and make a tree from. Your first step will Always be one back. Usually to just trunk, sometimes subtrunks or initial branching.

It is mostly due to a maples opposite growth habit. But not just the opposite, the fact that when strong, you don't just get 2buds at a node, you get 6. Those extra 4 are what creates reverse taper. Which can be cut leaving a gaping hole or Deciduous Deadwood. But DD is frowned upon, though, America runs in it ...lol...get it? Anyway. (I don't eat DD cuz I saw someone bring a donut back and they put it back on the shelf)

Making maples one of the highest in the
CAN'T SET IT AND FORGET IT category.

This is what makes small junipers so boring.
Absolutely nothing to do.

Unless you are making right small trees, but only blue rug juniper, and shimpaku juniper have foliage tight enough to make small trees. I guess AND are readily available.

Sorry forgot you were UK, you don't have Dunkin Donuts or Blue rugs right? Sabina juniper maybe.

Another important difference to consider in regards to growth habit is the difference between elms and maples.

Maples will only grow from Nodes.

Elms can grow a ring of branches at any cut site.

This makes elms a better setandforget Deciduous tree. The alternate leaf/branch pattern makes it less susceptible to reverse taper, though again, anything vigorous is not going to follow bonsai rules!

Understanding growth habits is paramount to success.

Sorce

 

[colley614]

It's a true statement, however, junipers ARE Shari and Deadwood. So you don't have to worry about it too much.

Training Follows growth habits.

It's why it's always good to allow your tree one year of free growth to watch growth habits. But, we can't do that so get 40 extra!

A Maple and a Juniper are great to ponder in regards to growth habits and training since they fall on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Because of Junipers Deadwood features, one can be left to its own devices for years, and be revisited to make a "tree" in one day.

You will never come to a Maple left to its own devices that you can cut a little, slap some wire on, and make a tree from. Your first step will Always be one back. Usually to just trunk, sometimes subtrunks or initial branching.

It is mostly due to a maples opposite growth habit. But not just the opposite, the fact that when strong, you don't just get 2buds at a node, you get 6. Those extra 4 are what creates reverse taper. Which can be cut leaving a gaping hole or Deciduous Deadwood. But DD is frowned upon, though, America runs in it ...lol...get it? Anyway. (I don't eat DD cuz I saw someone bring a donut back and they put it back on the shelf)

Making maples one of the highest in the
CAN'T SET IT AND FORGET IT category.

This is what makes small junipers so boring.
Absolutely nothing to do.

Unless you are making right small trees, but only blue rug juniper, and shimpaku juniper have foliage tight enough to make small trees. I guess AND are readily available.

Sorry forgot you were UK, you don't have Dunkin Donuts or Blue rugs right? Sabina juniper maybe.

Another important difference to consider in regards to growth habit is the difference between elms and maples.

Maples will only grow from Nodes.

Elms can grow a ring of branches at any cut site.

This makes elms a better setandforget Deciduous tree. The alternate leaf/branch pattern makes it less susceptible to reverse taper, though again, anything vigorous is not going to follow bonsai rules!

Understanding growth habits is paramount to success.

Sorce

Was really interesting to read that.

I can imagine myself carrying a Japanese maple around with a stump and a branch for the next few years telling everyone to look at my Bonsai.

We have a dunkin donuts not far from me. I'm not sure about the blue rug, might have seen one at the nursery. There was a few Pfizer, some Arnold's and rug type junipers then a few mugos and loads and loads of gold Crest cypress (is there any practice to be had with gold Crest as they are like £3 compared to a juniper at £12 for the same size.)

 

[sorce]

Was really interesting to read that.

I can imagine myself carrying a Japanese maple around with a stump and a branch for the next few years telling everyone to look at my Bonsai.

We have a dunkin donuts not far from me. I'm not sure about the blue rug, might have seen one at the nursery. There was a few Pfizer, some Arnold's and rug type junipers then a few mugos and loads and loads of gold Crest cypress (is there any practice to be had with gold Crest as they are like £3 compared to a juniper at £12 for the same size.)

A lot of people will associate those gold Cypress type trees with Newbs, maybe a guy like Nigel Saunders, but then, you have dudes like @vancehanna who repeatedly and solely it seems, makes thread about trees that are amazing, that people say aren't good for bonsai.

If you have a good vision, anything is good.

The best is what you find most favorable for your backyard microclimate.
Me...I chose to use Napa Oil dry for soil and I am forming success around it.
Some folks have a greenhouse and form success around that.
Maybe those gold Cypress become your cup of tea, and you formulate your success around them?

The key is to not flail. Limit differences and chance, in order to make worthwhile study.
Study of Your garden.

One more thing we never bring up when talking about anything is sun exposure length. Hell, our definitions of "full sun" probly vary in length from 6-16 hours a day.
This changes Everything. Yet we hold onto conclusions and answers here with no thought of it.

We flail.

Don't flail.

Sorce

 

[colley614]

A lot of people will associate those gold Cypress type trees with Newbs, maybe a guy like Nigel Saunders, but then, you have dudes like @vancehanna who repeatedly and solely it seems, makes thread about trees that are amazing, that people say aren't good for bonsai.

If you have a good vision, anything is good.

The best is what you find most favorable for your backyard microclimate.
Me...I chose to use Napa Oil dry for soil and I am forming success around it.
Some folks have a greenhouse and form success around that.
Maybe those gold Cypress become your cup of tea, and you formulate your success around them?

The key is to not flail. Limit differences and chance, in order to make worthwhile study.
Study of Your garden.

One more thing we never bring up when talking about anything is sun exposure length. Hell, our definitions of "full sun" probly vary in length from 6-16 hours a day.
This changes Everything. Yet we hold onto conclusions and answers here with no thought of it.

We flail.

Don't flail.

Sorce

Maybe I could try my hand at them as they are readily available at every nursery in my area and I could get half a dozen for the price of one recommended tree. Which would give me tonnes more practice.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

@sorce Junipers are only Shari and deadwood if Shari and deadwood are what you want. The OP has stated he wanted both of these to be informal upright trees. Maybe he doesnt want a ton of deadwood. Maybe he wants to achieve something similar to Vancehanna's well known erc but without the huge gaping shari down the trunk.

For a juniper, it is difficult to achieve if you let large branches grow out. If the OP stated that he wanted a tree with a ton of deadwood then Rockm's plan is ideal.

I see so many people recommending newcomers to do certain things with little care for their own goals and personal preferences. I have no interest in trees with huge chops. It screams impatience to me, which is the opposite of what I philosophically associate bonsai with: patience and reflection.

 

[rockm]

@sorce Junipers are only Shari and deadwood if Shari and deadwood are what you want. The OP has stated he wanted both of these to be informal upright trees. Maybe he doesnt want a ton of deadwood. Maybe he wants to achieve something similar to Vancehanna's well known erc but without the huge gaping shari down the trunk.

For a juniper, it is difficult to achieve if you let large branches grow out. If the OP stated that he wanted a tree with a ton of deadwood then Rockm's plan is ideal.

I see so many people recommending newcomers to do certain things with little care for their own goals and personal preferences. I have no interest in trees with huge chops. It screams impatience to me, which is the opposite of what I philosophically associate bonsai with: patience and reflection.