Nursery Stock to Bonsai, Order of Steps

[Leo in N E Illinois]

So 100 days from my expected frost date would be July 10ish... obviously we are a couple weeks beyond this.

Though im letting mine grow out anyway, what would happen if I were to candle prune at this point? Would no buds form in time for the tree to grow healthy next spring?

The later you decandle, the less time for the new growth to mature before winter. Since you are in zone 7, winter is not terribly harsh, but there is the potential that the second flush will not mature enough to achieve full winter hardiness. Your needles will be shorter (usually a good thing) but also the buds for the following spring might not have time to form. You are essentially forcing a second - short growing season. It is important to have enough days to mature. 20 days less than the ideal, is borderline. I would consult @Adair M for his thoughts.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@TrunkTickler
In the Toronto area there is an active bonsai society. Try to attend some meetings or shows. They will know more about what works best for your climate.

I've heard many different things too.
Remember - American larch - Larix laricina - is capable of growing in bogs, sphagnum mats, and low wet sand or gravel soils. The European larch - L decidua, and the western NA larch - L. occidentalis are more or less mountain trees, and will not survive the peat bog conditions our eastern larch, (the tamarack) will survive. European larch will rot away in the peat, I know, I killed one that way. Then went back to find out why.

I have heard some to fall collecting. I don't know what their success rates are. I would stick to late winter - early spring. But find locals who have collected larch.

And since you are in Canada, look for Thuja occidentalis - Arborvitae - American white cedar - they make excellent totally winter hardy bonsai.

 

[Adair M]

If you were to decandle too late for your growing season, there are two possibilities: 1) if you decandle really late, you don’t New new shoots, just new buds for next spring. 2) if you do get new candles, they may be really tiny, and the new needles really short, too short to really provide much energy for the tree. The tree will be weak, and you may be best to not decandle the following year, so it can build strength again.

In my opinion, it’s ysually best not to decandle at all rather than decandle too late.

There are special circumstances where a deliberate late decandling can be beneficial, but they’re rare. I’ve never done it.

 

[sorce]

best not to decandle at all rather than decandle too late.

If you don't, can you cut back to where you would have decandled this year, in the following year?

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

If you don't, can you cut back to where you would have decandled this year, in the following year?

Sorce

It depends.

One technique is to pull needles in Late winter close to the bud, leaving needles farther back towards the trunk. Then, at decandling time, rather than just decandle at the bud, go back, and cut off where you had previously pulled the needles. This technique forces needle buds to emerge where you had left needles.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Thanks Adair, that confirmed my thoughts. Just wanted to hear from someone with expertise.

 

[Adair M]

It depends.

One technique is to pull needles in Late winter close to the bud, leaving needles farther back towards the trunk. Then, at decandling time, rather than just decandle at the bud, go back, and cut off where you had previously pulled the needles. This technique forces needle buds to emerge where you had left needles.

It also forces budding farther back at old nodes.

 

[sparklemotion]

I have heard some to fall collecting. I don't know what their success rates are. I would stick to late winter - early spring. But find locals who have collected larch.

Fall is a popular time for collecting larch in Minnesota (zone 3/4), this is at least in part due to the ease of spotting material (bright yellow needles).

From what I understand, the trees are protected from frost for the winter immediately post-collection, and the survival rates are decent.

 

[LanceMac10]

It depends.

One technique is to pull needles in Late winter close to the bud, leaving needles farther back towards the trunk. Then, at decandling time, rather than just decandle at the bud, go back, and cut off where you had previously pulled the needles. This technique forces needle buds to emerge where you had left needles.

In spring? Much more inclined to believe it would grow buds at the point where you made the cut. As opposed to further back into old needles. Some might form, but the buds at the cut point will take over. Just spit-ballin'....

 

[Adair M]

In spring? Much more inclined to believe it would grow buds at the point where you made the cut. As opposed to further back into old needles. Some might form, but the buds at the cut point will take over. Just spit-ballin'....

Why post something when you have no experience doing it? I don’t.

Here is a shot from a Shohin where I did exactly what I said. And it IS popping new summer buds from a prior node. I don’t actually see any needles buds yet. The tree may have “decided” it’s easier to backbud from an old node than push needle buds. That’s fine with me!

 

[my nellie]

... ...The most difficult aspect of bonsai to learn is timing. Learning to adjust advice from others to your local climate calendar.
... ...When ever I read someone's advice, I check the location of the author, and mentally adjust to a calendar for my location.
... ...Then I think about when that would be for myself... ... ...

THIS should be a "sticky" to each and every thread!
Thank you Leo!

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

Wow, I didn't realize that this was so nuanced. :/ Here is my current list of nursery stock that I was planning on repotting into a bonsai pot in the spring. Assuming that everything is healthy are there any that I should go ahead and do now or any that I should do after spring of next year? I planned on applying two rounds of fertilizer this fall even though they're in their nursery containers to get them geared up for spring repotting. Most everything is root bound though, so would I be doing more harm than good?

Golden hinoki
Dwarf mugo pine
Willow leaf ficus
Parsoni juniper
Crape myrtle
Japanese maple
Dwarf alberta spruce

 

[bwaynef]

More important, especially if a tree is new to you, learn what good healthy growth looks like. I had problems with JBP for years because I thought relatively weak growth was healthy growth. Not until I saw a locally grown tree with big foxtails of new shoots, just before decandling, did I understand what healthy growth is. Trees on display in shows are often needle plucked to the point of looking fairly sparse. And if you don't understand that the sparse look is only temporary, and mistake it for healthy growth, you end up working on weak trees and then they die. I finally started having better success with JBP when I would let them get bushy foxtails of growth before doing major pruning or styling or wiring or repotting. Now my survival rate has come way up. Haven't lost more than one or two since that realization.
So learn what healthy growth looks like for each new species you try.

I can't possibly agree with this post any more than I do. I truly believe this is what's held me back for years and I only started realizing this the past few years. It took me too long to fully understand that what I was seeing wasn't the epitome of what "health" SHOULD look like. That's meant that I've been a little more hands off, technique-wise, on my trees last year and this. The difference in vigor and growth is finally coming around and I feel like I'm going to be swimming in trees to work on soon. (Or offloading some.) I'm still learning how to build vigor, but there's definitely more of it in my trees than in years past.

Exposure to other's high quality trees has proven to be eye-opening. Get out there. Look around. Compare the results you're getting to the results others are. Figure out why yours is different.

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

I can't possibly agree with this post any more than I do. I truly believe this is what's held me back for years and I only started realizing this the past few years. It took me too long to fully understand that what I was seeing wasn't the epitome of what "health" SHOULD look like. That's meant that I've been a little more hands off, technique-wise, on my trees last year and this. The difference in vigor and growth is finally coming around and I feel like I'm going to be swimming in trees to work on soon. (Or offloading some.) I'm still learning how to build vigor, but there's definitely more of it in my trees than in years past.

Exposure to other's high quality trees has proven to be eye-opening. Get out there. Look around. Compare the results you're getting to the results others are. Figure out why yours is different.

What do figure out you were doing wrong?

 

[bwaynef]

For several trees, I'd never allowed them to regain vigor after doing work. Repotting, trimming, decandling... whatever it was. Sifting my soil seems to have helped a good bit. Figuring out when to be more active in pest control has provided a return in spades. (Spider mites are the devil.) I'm not convinced I get the growth others do with organic fertilizer so I've got to figure out what I'm doing wrong there. I also have to correlate the amount of shade I have with the results I'm seeing ...eliminating other factors as I can. I'm getting there.

The biggest factor: learn what health/vigor looks like and then wait until the tree shows that before working on it.

 

[River's Edge]

For several trees, I'd never allowed them to regain vigor after doing work. Repotting, trimming, decandling... whatever it was. Sifting my soil seems to have helped a good bit. Figuring out when to be more active in pest control has provided a return in spades. (Spider mites are the devil.) I'm not convinced I get the growth others do with organic fertilizer so I've got to figure out what I'm doing wrong there. I also have to correlate the amount of shade I have with the results I'm seeing ...eliminating other factors as I can. I'm getting there.

The biggest factor: learn what health/vigor looks like and then wait until the tree shows that before working on it.

Agreed! The most common issue i see with many Bonsai collections is the weak condition of the the trees overall and the evidence of too much work too often for the condition of the trees.
I attribute it to the reluctance to strengthen trees and maintain them in a vigorous state! Ancient attitudes that keeping trees small requires stunting with lack of water, fertiliser and pot space!
The second observation is too often the Bonsai enthusiast has more trees than they could possibly maintain at a high level.
It is a real joy to see trees that are healthy and well maintained regardless of their quality and stage of development!
One of the most important Bonsai activities for clubs and individuals should be the visit to top professionals and advanced practitioners collection to see what healthy vigorous well maintained trees look like!

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

The second observation is too often the Bonsai enthusiast has more trees than they could possibly maintain at a high level.

Yes, I've found this out by accident. I went on a mad hunt for material and bought a decent amount of nursery stock. I then took on the task of cleaning and setting structural wire on all of them. I thought it was never going to end. I actually just recently set the structure on the last of them. Hardest part of it was resisting the urge to clean/prune too much. I need to keep them vigorous for the repotting next year. It also takes me like 30 mins each morning to water them plus everything else I have to water in my yard and porch. When someone tells me that they have 100+ trees I just don't understand how they can do it. Maybe automated watering. :/

 

[sorce]

The second observation is too often the Bonsai enthusiast has more trees than they could possibly maintain at a high level

Yes, I've found this out by accident

I don't disagree.

But I think there is way more to it than that.

Some crossover of a newb thinking work must be done at all times perhaps.

Poor ideas and worse application.

Poor scheduling, vision.

A fear of summer repotting.

A fear of "doing work out of season" in general.

..
I can see a collection of 50 spruce that are just about finished requiring a lot of work, wiring etc....

But once one understands the difference between a tree that can be left to its own devices and one that can not.....

When one realizes every bit of work doesn't have to take place in one season...

When one has the right mix of trees in grow out, training, refinement....

It's actually quite easy to properly maintain a decent collection.

Oh when you stop spraying for insects, wasting time on fertilizer cakes recipes and teabagging...stop sticking your fingers in every tree to gauge watering.....

Lotta seriously dumb shit we waste time on too.

Remember....

We can't speed this up,
So we must remove everything that makes it take longer.
This produces the fastest results.

Sorce

 

[TyroTinker]

Remember....

We can't speed this up,
So we must remove everything that makes it take longer.
This produces the fastest results.

Sorce

Great quote! It’s very simple but insightful

 

[sorce]

Great quote! It’s very simple but insightful

After I wrote it here again....

I began thinking of how it works for everything in life and had to thank bonsai for the education!

Sorce