Next steps for two young satsuki azaleas

[kekoa]

I'm looking for advice for next steps to consider for these two young satsuki azaleas. I'm in SoCal (Zone 10a) and both of these have already flowered and I've removed the pistils.

The first is a Kinpai i purchased earlier this spring. This view represents a good "front" side i think, and after removing the pistils I also lightly pruned some of the vertical branches as well as branches that were crossing the trunk with regards to this view. The trunk is 2 cm at the thickest, which still seems rather small to me. I'd like to thicken the trunk but also add movement. While i'd like to wire in movement in some of the primary branches, I'm concerned about breakage and also whether it's too early to consider that kind of refinement when the trunk might need 1-2 years to thicken meaning these branches will all likely be pruned away by then.


The second tree is a Tama no Hada. It has a slightly thicker trunk measuring about 2.5 cm at the thickest visible. This view is my preferred front for the time being. While i've removed pistils from spent flowers, i've done less pruning. My goals for this tree are the same as the Kinpai: I want to further thicken the trunk and what research i've done seems to point to putting it in the ground. However, i'm again unsure about what to do with the branches at this moment. Wire them to establish some preliminary shape or just maintenance prune while i wait for the trunk to thicken and then work on the shape later.


Any/add comments, advice, and feedback welcome! Thanks.

 

[Kadebe]

I would let it grow... develop trunk...after that develop primary branches....

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I’ll first dump my data banks on these as I have both and am still on light duty! Sorry if it’s too much.

Kinpai: Likely you already know, the Kinpai has 2.5-3” flowers and small leaves so a medium size bonsai design will fit with the flowers best, but with small leaves, could be smaller bonsai, you’d just have to trim off some of the flower buds each year when flowering is desired. It has vigorous spreading growth… so keep the lower branches in check so the top can grow out strong.
It has red foliage in autumn and if taken care of properly Kinpai grows well and the backbuds reliably when pruned. Kinpai is also susceptible to disease, fungus and what not. So be sure to cut paste all wounds and spray with a fungicide once in awhile. I use H2O2 1-2 TBSP/ QT on mine every couple weeks.
Kinpai also has hard wood, so best to style branches when young, or take precautions… keep from watering for a couple days before styling, spring wood tends to be a bit more supple, wrap wire for big bends etc…

Tama no Hada. This guy has very large flowers as you know, getting to 4-5“. That’s as big as satsuki usually get. So naturally best in a bigger open designed tree to allow for flowering. You’ll still need to prune off buds though. If you don’t care about flowers the leaves will dictate bonsai size. As you can tell, it’s a strong grower.

As your goal is to grow out the trunk as first priority, you have two options.

Upsize the pot (Match the media). The azaleas will grow out almost as fast as when in ground. But you do have a couple more pots to worry about. On the upside you have much better control over the environment, styling and pest control.

Grow out in the ground. The plat will grow faster. Not so much first year, but second and on will pick up speed. Downsides, lack of environmental control, not as easy to style. Good observation will make pest control a toss up. Since they are likely both 3-4 yoa trees if you growing grow you’ll need to watch them and protect as needed the first year.

Right now.…. Try to get a rough idea on what height you are shooting for. That will help you proceed.

Kinpai - The way Kinpai grows tends to be lighter, a bit more open growth. I’d work on keeping branches clear of up and down growth and style to have clean bifurcations… Pune as needed to give bonsai shape. You can even wire. Then decide where to plant.

Tama no Hada - The tree is growing like a mop, as many nursery trees do. I’d start simpliflying the tree, including make some decisions on branch removal and get started on this before doing anything else. You can also wire and trim as you see fit.

I don’t like pruning all the way back, rather prune to the innermost foliage to keep some sap flow going while the tree establishes new sap line flows. Then cut off completely in early spring. Yet plenty of folks chop and go. That’s just me. Your tree, your choice!

Good Luck. It will be fun to watch these grow.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[sorce]

Sorry I missed you before!

Kekoa sounds like it matches the beautiful flower.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[Glaucus]

Yes, let it grow in the garden in a good location. Then prune to prevent reverse taper as well as prune to prevent the apex from weakening.
likely, you cannot wire the current branches.

 

[kekoa]

I’ll first dump my data banks on these as I have both and am still on light duty! Sorry if it’s too much.

Kinpai: Likely you already know, the Kinpai has 2.5-3” flowers and small leaves so a medium size bonsai design will fit with the flowers best, but with small leaves, could be smaller bonsai, you’d just have to trim off some of the flower buds each year when flowering is desired. It has vigorous spreading growth… so keep the lower branches in check so the top can grow out strong.
It has red foliage in autumn and if taken care of properly Kinpai grows well and the backbuds reliably when pruned. Kinpai is also susceptible to disease, fungus and what not. So be sure to cut paste all wounds and spray with a fungicide once in awhile. I use H2O2 1-2 TBSP/ QT on mine every couple weeks.
Kinpai also has hard wood, so best to style branches when young, or take precautions… keep from watering for a couple days before styling, spring wood tends to be a bit more supple, wrap wire for big bends etc…

Tama no Hada. This guy has very large flowers as you know, getting to 4-5“. That’s as big as satsuki usually get. So naturally best in a bigger open designed tree to allow for flowering. You’ll still need to prune off buds though. If you don’t care about flowers the leaves will dictate bonsai size. As you can tell, it’s a strong grower.

As your goal is to grow out the trunk as first priority, you have two options.

Upsize the pot (Match the media). The azaleas will grow out almost as fast as when in ground. But you do have a couple more pots to worry about. On the upside you have much better control over the environment, styling and pest control.

Grow out in the ground. The plat will grow faster. Not so much first year, but second and on will pick up speed. Downsides, lack of environmental control, not as easy to style. Good observation will make pest control a toss up. Since they are likely both 3-4 yoa trees if you growing grow you’ll need to watch them and protect as needed the first year.

Right now.…. Try to get a rough idea on what height you are shooting for. That will help you proceed.

Kinpai - The way Kinpai grows tends to be lighter, a bit more open growth. I’d work on keeping branches clear of up and down growth and style to have clean bifurcations… Pune as needed to give bonsai shape. You can even wire. Then decide where to plant.

Tama no Hada - The tree is growing like a mop, as many nursery trees do. I’d start simpliflying the tree, including make some decisions on branch removal and get started on this before doing anything else. You can also wire and trim as you see fit.

I don’t like pruning all the way back, rather prune to the innermost foliage to keep some sap flow going while the tree establishes new sap line flows. Then cut off completely in early spring. Yet plenty of folks chop and go. That’s just me. Your tree, your choice!

Good Luck. It will be fun to watch these grow.

cheers
DSD sends

Thank you so much for such a detailed and informative response! I definitely appreciate the 'data dump'! It sounds so obvious but I hadn't even considered the relationship between the flower size and final bonsai size. duh! You mentioned bifurcation and I'm wondering if following a generalized principle of one branch becoming two becoming four is appropriate for satsuki generally? Regarding the Tama no Hada - that's great advice to simplify the structure of the tree. It's kind of amazing how different they two cultivars are already even when so young and small. I admit that i have an even foggier concept of what size and shape that tree should take in part i think based on what you've suggested - there is a lot going on in there.

About the pruning - I've removed the pistils, but would you prune after flowering generally?

Thanks again!

 

[kekoa]

Yes, let it grow in the garden in a good location. Then prune to prevent reverse taper as well as prune to prevent the apex from weakening.
likely, you cannot wire the current branches.

Thank you. I watched a video on Mirai(?) about pruning satsuki and the instructor mentioned that the satsuki has a weak apex, and that one should take extra care when pruning near the top. Stupid question, but how do you explain reverse taper? Does this mean that the trunk can thicken more near the top compared to the base?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You mentioned bifurcation and I'm wondering if following a generalized principle of one branch becoming two becoming four is appropriate for satsuki generally?

Yes

Regarding the Tama no Hada - that's great advice to simplify the structure of the tree. It's kind of amazing how different they two cultivars are already even when so young and small. I admit that i have an even foggier concept of what size and shape that tree should take in part i think based on what you've suggested - there is a lot going on in there.

We make bonsai on these type trees by reduction pruning also simplify branches fork to twos, alternating branching from one side of a main branch to the other if possible. This creates tertiary etc structure.

Basic technique at flowering sites. Reduce new foliage from each flowering site to two new branchlets of equal size placed horizontally. This means prune the strongest and the weakest and leave two. Then reduce these branches to only two leaves. This will help create back budding.

About the pruning - I've removed the pistils, but would you prune after flowering generally?

Remove all flower parts including the sepals (calyx)

Thank you. I watched a video on Mirai(?) about pruning satsuki and the instructor mentioned that the satsuki has a weak apex, and that one should take extra care when pruning near the top.

The three Mirai videos (Two feature Peter Warren in them) on satsuki are very informative. Yet they use a specimen tree. Way past where most folks are. Yet Ihope you took good notes, there was lots of good technique you eventually may use

Azlaeas are basally dominent. This means the energy shuttles towards the lower branches first, the top of the tree, the apex gets last dibs. Here’s a Bixby Dwarf, just flowered, the basal branches have massively pushed out, robbing the apex that is being developed…(not for long, this is first off the shelf tomorrow for a cut back!)



The way we get around this is by keeping the lower growth pruned back to at a certain point one chooses based upon the design and stage of development. . This forces more energy upwards to the apex so it can be developed into a bonsai. Here’s a photo a Kikisui, note the primary and some of the secondary structure has is in place. The apex is starting to form properly. The lower branching is getting too long. This will be fixed after blooming in June.



When you get an older tree this is much more critical. Pruning the apex back hard can cause it to die back.
This Secchu no Matsu has been wired and pruned upto the apex this week. You can see the pads are pretty thinned out. The apex isn’t, but some outward branches were reduced. Further apex reduction needs to be done carefully from here on.

Stupid question, but how do you explain reverse taper? Does this mean that the trunk can thicken more near the top compared to the base?

You got it! We like to avoid crafting a tree with reverse taper. It happens when you have multiple branches joining the central trunk at the same place. (A former flowering site btw). Sometimes called a cartwheel.

Lots of sap flow occurs at these multiple junctions and a tree accommodates the increased need for more flow by increasing the size of the “pipelines” to and from each branch to the roots.

Now you know why we cut back flowering sites to two branchlets. It’s to simplify he design and also to avoid reverse taper. Nursery folks goal is to produce a marketable azalea in the minimum time possible, so they hedge prune the entire structure without regard to these cartwheels. This embeds problems in their trees, that if left unresolved through pruning, will create reverse taper.

Good Luck. I’ll look forward to seeing your progress on this thread.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[shinmai]

As always, excellent info from DSD. After what’s happening in the pot, the most important contributor to vigor and longevity in Satsuki is the continuous creation of new branches—hence our friend’s message of cut back, grow out, cut back, etc. Personally, I think failing to do so, including in the context of the apex, is the reason for the common complaint about someone’s tree dying from the top down over a longer period of time [as distinct from sudden-death causes].

 

[Glaucus]

Thank you. I watched a video on Mirai(?) about pruning satsuki and the instructor mentioned that the satsuki has a weak apex, and that one should take extra care when pruning near the top. Stupid question, but how do you explain reverse taper? Does this mean that the trunk can thicken more near the top compared to the base?

Deep Sea Diver already answered. But to put it in my words too.
A bonsai has taper as it gets fatter when going from apex to roots. In the case of reverse taper, the opposite happens . Usually, it is a bulge created by side branches on the trunk.
If you want to get a large trunk, you need many leaves. And for many leaves you need many branches that can grow grow grow.

In regards to reverse taper, any place where more than one branch emerges, you have to prune one away. If you don't, you get a bulge. When new shoots emerge, they come in groups of 2 to 7 from the base of a flower. Usually, one prunes those back to two shoots somewhere midsummer. Often, the shoots that are kept are reduced to 2 leaves.

If this is not done, you get spoke wheels. You see this on many nursery plants. Or on garden plants that are not pruned.

On the second level, there is branch vs trunk. Even when you have just the main trunk and a sidebranch, there can still be an issue.
As azaleas are shrubs and not trees, they don't grow a main trunk with sidebranches. So you introduce that yourself by pruning.
Reverse taper is already an issue in bonsai in general. But azaleas naturally want to create it. So even if you have a fork in your trunk, you want one branch to be the actual trunk, and the other a thinner side-branch.
So this means that at some point, you will have to prune back the sidebranch hard. This to make the actual trunk more dominant. To keep the apex stronger.
Usually, a branch you use to fatten the trunk will eventually be removed entirely.
You will see that many azaleas, especially some satsuki, like to push new shoots from the base of the trunk. And these shoots grow the fastest. So it is often very easy to replace a sacrificial branch with an entirely new one.

But if you never prune back sidebranches. Or remove them. You may also get a bulge in your trunk at that spot.

Additionally, you may actually want to prune out an apex so to get movement. Since azaleas are very brittle and cannot be bend, you can sometimes introduce movement in the trunk by pruning.

You can maybe grow these without serious pruning for another year. But not two years. you may also opt now to prune away everything that isn't your main trunk line.
Though maybe your weather is too hot now to prune down an azalea. The leaves shade the trunk so if the temperature is such that they already get a bit stressed, pruning now isn't the right time.
If you wait too long, the sidebranches will swamp out the main trunk line and you will just get an area from which several equally thick trunks emerge, possibly with reverse taper.

 

[kekoa]

@Deep Sea Diver @shinmai @Glaucus thank you all three for the really helpful advice and guidance (DSD beautiful bonsai btw - thank you for uploading those images). I'm pretty new to this and have been reading a lot in books and online, but like DSD said, seeing someone work on a specimen tree is really a world away as far as comparing to the little guys i've got growing in those pots so it's really helpful to get specific advice for specific problems that i'm experiencing. Anyway, i really appreciate the detailed responses and will post updates to this thread as they grow!

I'm already excited to get back to Nuccio's next weekend and get a few more 1 gallon satsuki with smaller flowers to grow alongside these ones with the med to large flower. I cross-referenced the flower sizes in the Fred Galle "Azaleas" book and an old article from "The Azalean" against Nuccio's current inventory and shortlisted Kobai, Korin, Koryu, and Juko, which should round out my nascent collection in terms of different growth habits and flower sizes. I figure that I might as well get those trunks thickening now! No time like the present to plant a shrub if you're waiting for it to grow!

 

[Carol 83]

@Deep Sea Diver @shinmai @Glaucus thank you all three for the really helpful advice and guidance (DSD beautiful bonsai btw - thank you for uploading those images). I'm pretty new to this and have been reading a lot in books and online, but like DSD said, seeing someone work on a specimen tree is really a world away as far as comparing to the little guys i've got growing in those pots so it's really helpful to get specific advice for specific problems that i'm experiencing. Anyway, i really appreciate the detailed responses and will post updates to this thread as they grow!

I'm already excited to get back to Nuccio's next weekend and get a few more 1 gallon satsuki with smaller flowers to grow alongside these ones with the med to large flower. I cross-referenced the flower sizes in the Fred Galle "Azaleas" book and an old article from "The Azalean" against Nuccio's current inventory and shortlisted Kobai, Korin, Koryu, and Juko, which should round out my nascent collection in terms of different growth habits and flower sizes. I figure that I might as well get those trunks thickening now! No time like the present to plant a shrub if you're waiting for it to grow!

I am waiting for the Kobai from them to bloom. If I lived close to them, I would be broke.

 

[kekoa]

Ooh nice! please send a picture when it does! Yes - I'm pretty close and I think the only thing that has saved me is the fact that they don't accept card payments !

 

[Glaucus]

@Deep Sea Diver @shinmai @GlaucusI cross-referenced the flower sizes in the Fred Galle "Azaleas" book and an old article from "The Azalean" against Nuccio's current inventory and shortlisted Kobai, Korin, Koryu, and Juko, which should round out my nascent collection in terms of different growth habits and flower sizes. I figure that I might as well get those trunks thickening now! No time like the present to plant a shrub if you're waiting for it to grow!

Korin is one of the top out-of-flower plant habit satsuki. Chinzan is similar. Juko is one of the best azaleas (though maybe some new ones are superior). The flowers are very very good and it grows very well (at least for me). It does not have the thick petals, though (but few Nuccio varieties have). Juko is one of those varieties were the flowers are large and the leaves are small. Kobai has both small leaves and flowers and is a slow grower (for me). Autumn colour, but not something that trunks up fast. And the flowers are more modest. Koryu should be good, as it is a Kozan type.
Check out Issho no Haru or Haru no Sono. One of the greats. Check out Kogetsu too. And ask them what does well locally in the LA zone 10.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You are most welcome!

Good selections on satsuki. Hint: When you go to Nuccios be sure to have a number of back ups. Their inventory is not often up to date, at least not since 2018, unless things have changed in the past couple months. So be flexible!

Also do me a flavor and please tell Jim that John that crazy bonsai guy in Bothell, WA said Hi! We had set up a visit just after Christmas last year but snow and COVID made this not feasible.

I hope you enjoy your visit! It should be a really great time to go.
DSD sends

 

[shinmai]

Korin is one of the top out-of-flower plant habit satsuki. Chinzan is similar. Juko is one of the best azaleas (though maybe some new ones are superior). The flowers are very very good and it grows very well (at least for me). It does not have the thick petals, though (but few Nuccio varieties have). Juko is one of those varieties were the flowers are large and the leaves are small. Kobai has both small leaves and flowers and is a slow grower (for me). Autumn colour, but not something that trunks up fast. And the flowers are more modest. Koryu should be good, as it is a Kozan type.
Check out Issho no Haru or Haru no Sono. One of the greats. Check out Kogetsu too. And ask them what does well locally in the LA zone 10.

Excellent suggestions. I have a Juko which is doing wonderfully, and two small issho-no-haru that I love. Juko is a parent plant for a whole series of cultivars. I would also suggest karenko and kojo-no-tsuki if you can find them. This is kojo-no-tsuki.
.

And my karenko. Both pictures from last summer.

 

[River's Edge]

Wiring Azalea is primarily the new shoots as they extend. However with care you can wire thinner diameter branches and trunks with care. I use raffia to provide some protection and larger thicker wire with very slow pressure and gentle curves. This does take practice and is not recommended for the faint of heart.

With wiring the new shoots I use 1mm or 1.5 mm aluminum and leave extra length to use on the extension as it grows. From time to time one needs to unwrap and rewrap to avoid scarring. This process can be very effective when using thread grafts to create new branches and pads. Here is an example. This is a more established bonsai that I am adding a new branch and pad with a thread graft lower on the trunk. The thread graft and its shoots are being wired as it extends to create the foundation of a pad structure. Shoots not desired are removed, those remaining are wired in position as they extend.
This tree was created using that method. as all the current foliage pads were created on a lower trunk through gradual reduction of the taller tree and thread grafting. The thread grafting used both extend branching from above and or cuttings struck and potted from the same parent plant.

If you look closely the first picture shows the thread graft wired and extending, the second picture shows the previous pads and structure created with the same method. The trunk is older, the tree formed on the lower portion of the trunk and the original upper portion ( approx 3 feet extra) has been removed.

 

[kekoa]

just want to reiterate my thanks to everyone for the thoughtful and informative responses - this is a great community!