New term for American bonsai

[TN_Jim]

Marcel Duchamp, To Be Looked at (the Other Side of the Glass)
with One Eye, Close to, for Almost an Hour, 1918

 

[BunjaeKorea]

I could make up a brilliant name for American bonsai, but what about Dutch bonsai?

Well if it ain't Dutch....it ain't much.....and I am obviously not biased at all....
So....

The Best Sai = Dutch Bonsai

 

[Paul2229]

Boonsai

 

[papymandarin]

Frankly i have not seen anything justifying a change of name. To me it's like finding a new name to painting just because paintings in some part of the world have some regional peculiarities. You have a frame of some sort and put colour of some sort on it, it's painting. You put a tree in a pot and maintain it small but looking like a grown tree, it's bonsai. And what about all western (non asian) but non american trees? All this name change thing seems to me (sorry to be rude) very arrogant and self centered....

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Well if it ain't Dutch....it ain't much.....and I am obviously not biased at all....
So....

The Best Sai = Dutch Bonsai

I'm voting for Borrelsai.
Paired with beer and snacks, people make the best trees. It's a worldwide phenomenon, but if we're the first to coin it..
Say whatever you want, but you can't ignore the fact that wet akadama looks like a hybrid between hagelslag and vlokken. And dry, it looks like the crust of the bitterbal.
We use tiny rakes to scoop up our friet. And the flags we throw on our haring are bonsai-sized.
Not to forget, we were the most successful when it comes to turning junipers into liquor.
Now for some reason, I get the urge to throw one of my trees in a 150 year old hand crafted wooden shoe.
I'm ordering some boeren bont bonsai pots next year. Or maybe Delfts blauw. I mean, when it comes to porcelain, there was a time we beat the Chinese. I think we still can, with the right motivation.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

I'm voting for Borrelsai.
Paired with beer and snacks, people make the best trees. It's a worldwide phenomenon, but if we're the first to coin it..
Say whatever you want, but you can't ignore the fact that wet akadama looks like a hybrid between hagelslag and vlokken. And dry, it looks like the crust of the bitterbal.
We use tiny rakes to scoop up our friet. And the flags we throw on our haring are bonsai-sized.
Not to forget, we were the most successful when it comes to turning junipers into liquor.
Now for some reason, I get the urge to throw one of my trees in a 150 year old hand crafted wooden shoe.
I'm ordering some boeren bont bonsai pots next year. Or maybe Delfts blauw. I mean, when it comes to porcelain, there was a time we beat the Chinese. I think we still can, with the right motivation.

You are a hero among men and a downright genius

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Oh, and let us not forget the tiny things we're famous for:

If anything, we do in fact need our own name. We've earned it.

Now that I think of it, Madurodam might have the largest collection of ground planted bonsai in Europe. 5500 trees!

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Oh, and let us not forget the tiny things we're famous for:

If anything, we do in fact need our own name. We've earned it.

Now that I think of it, Madurodam might have the largest collection of ground planted bonsai in Europe. 5500 trees!

It's great!!!! A great park....well it's tiny, but great.....yet tiny.....but still great.....
You know what I mean

 

[just.wing.it]

I don't want to change the name.
I like bonsai as is.

 

[Bananaman]

Maybe if you could post some photos of your work so we could get an idea of your skill levels a more definitive answer could follow.

Just wondering if you were formulating your more definitive answer? My skill level is much like the forum in many respects, and far above the forum in others. My comment did say "on this forum" so maybe we could return to my question and you could make your thoughts known. I also did not see anyone else called out to show their trees even though there is much bantor. Maybe everyone should pony up some photos...yes?

Maybe a merit system should be in place and graduated sub forums where if you don't pass muster, you don't get to post there.

Is that where we are headed here too?

 

[Saddler]

Just wondering if you were formulating your more definitive answer? My skill level is much like the forum in many respects, and far above the forum in others. My comment did say "on this forum" so maybe we could return to my question and you could make your thoughts known. I also did not see anyone else called out to show their trees even though there is much bantor. Maybe everyone should pony up some photos...yes?

Maybe a merit system should be in place and graduated sub forums where if you don't pass muster, you don't get to post there.

Is that where we are headed here too?

I see. You are at least as good at bonsai as anyone here, and much better in some ways. You should be the one to make the decisions about bonsai.

I’m just waiting for you to tell us about how you made Ryan Neil’s career and your illustrious path in American bonsai again to show us what you are made of. Yaaaawwwwn.

 

[twisted trees]

Um, no. Both statements are pretty much untrue. Bonsai is Japan was created AND MAINTAINED BY THE ELITE. That is were it grew from--the Imperial Palace for a time outlawed ownership of bonsai except by the royal class. As for ownership and money--Japan is far far FAR ahead of egotism and $$ when it comes to bonsai. There is no on in the U.S. paying $2 mill for a tree or $500,000 for a pot...Yes, there is ego and $ in bonsai in the U.S., but there's also both in just about any hobby--take a look at custom automobiles...ect. Bonsai $ is nowhere near car $ here.

As for "American Bonsai," I always haul out this photo of Ron Lang's "Utah Ledge" composition. He created it a long time ago. Not seen many other compositions that come close to its specificity to a distinct American desert landscape.
http://www.langbonsai.com/experimental.htm
View attachment 211954

If by taking an average tree and dressing it up in fancy surroundings then yes, that could describe a fair amount of American bonsai. I doubt it makes it a style.

 

[twisted trees]

This does bring up the issue of who should judge major North American shows? But the results this September from the National Show seem to demonstrate that at least so far, the Japanese professionals chosen by Bill Valvanis are quite competent at judging bonsai produced in America. Japan is a country with diverse landscapes, from the tropical island of Okinawa to the very cold, almost Wyoming like mountains of the island of Hokkaido. I am certain that Japanese bonsai judges are not strangers to the idea that artists will have different cultural references in their bonsai.

Only Taiga Urushibata was from Japan. The other two judges at the National were Mauro Stemberger from Italy and Lindsey Bebb from Austrailia.

 

[Vance Wood]

Just wondering if you were formulating your more definitive answer? My skill level is much like the forum in many respects, and far above the forum in others. My comment did say "on this forum" so maybe we could return to my question and you could make your thoughts known. I also did not see anyone else called out to show their trees even though there is much bantor. Maybe everyone should pony up some photos...yes?

Maybe a merit system should be in place and graduated sub forums where if you don't pass muster, you don't get to post there.

Is that where we are headed here too?

The reason you were called out was because of the more or less confrontational tone of your comment and the evidence that you have not been here too long. This left the question in my mind if you were not just another troll or you really had an idea of what you were talking about. We have had, even recently, people show up boasting great things of themselves and demeaning the members of this forum that in fact don't know a bonsai from a ham sandwich. My further response would be; until you can show evidence of your willingness to help people on this forum your opinions would be looked at through a jaundiced eye on my part. Whether or not my opinion means anything to anyone other than myself is self evident. Then the other point to be considered; if you are not happy with this forum why are you here?

 

[rockm]

If by taking an average tree and dressing it up in fancy surroundings then yes, that could describe a fair amount of American bonsai. I doubt it makes it a style.

If you're talking about the pot the "average" tree is in, then I'd take issue with simply "dressing it up." That pot sets the stage for the "average" tree. The container denotes a specific place that is kind of unique to much of the North American west. It elevates the "average tree" to another level, using that geographic specificity. It has no real parallel in Japanese containers. This kind of thoughtful approach can yield "American" bonsai. There are also some pots made by Ron Lang used by Ryan Neil at Mirai that include fossil imprints that also suggest location.
Yes, you can call it simply dressing things up, but there's a difference between a handmade suit with cowboy boots and flip flops and a Key West T-shirt. Clothes can suggest origins...

 

[Solaris]

Then there you have your name Rockm ;-)

@Vance Wood I get your point completely, but we define ugly in ways of bonsai-ugly. Because I think we've learned what's pleasing to the eye and what isn't, for a large part through exposure. But back when Ruebens painted fluffy oversized women they were considered beautiful. Nowadays, we, are forced to watch at skinny, big boobed innocent-looking ladies. These models are considered beautiful as well. Fluffy women are now called Plus sized models. In the public view, they are not considered to be as beautiful as regular models. Why is that? Is that, maybe because our definition of ugly and pretty is fluid? In the old paintings, plus sized was best. It was a sign of health, prosperity, vividness, livelihood. I can't even describe the old paintings of women without using negative phrasing. I honestly can't. That's partially because my way of thinking about beauty is defined by what I've seen and the general public's opinion. Flashy white skin, blushing red was the norm. Nowadays we have tanning salons, ladies chiseled out of marble, skin and bones, hard lines and sunken cheeks (pantera reference!). A completely opposite definition of beauty compared to just 80 or so years ago.

Rubens was a fetishist.
Looking at paintings and sculptures of women throughout history, our definitions of beauty haven't really changed all that much. Hell, even our idea of a beautiful face is pretty much the same now as it was in the Renaissance, the Middle Ages, and Antiquity. Fashions may change (notably, the ideal bust size or the preferred skin tone, as well as how much skin is permissably exposed and where), and sometimes you find some pretty extreme fashions, but regression to the mean always follows - and very often the fashions will swing the other way. The idea that a beautiful woman today would be found unattractive a hundred, five hundred, or a thousand years ago is nothing but a fashionable notion passed around without much research put into it. It makes exactly as much sense as saying that a woman with a petite figure is unattractive today because Kim Kardashian is famous for her big butt. If the idea that standards of beauty changed held much merit, wouldn't it make sense that glamour models, actresses, and porn starlets all fell into the same standards, rather than running the gamut from Tess Holliday (horrid human being, by the way) to Carmen Electra to Emma Watson and Anne Hathaway. You can see a similar diversity of body types (well, maybe not to Holliday's grotesque extreme, but I doubt she was possible in the premodern world) and facial features in just about everything except Ancient Egyptian art.

Fashion models (the skin-and-bones, hard lines and sunken cheeks types) aren't really meant to be all that attractive. (This entire discussion gets complicated by the fact that no matter what she looks like, there's a man who thinks she's the most alluring creature on the planet.) They're picked to display clothing, not distract from them.

Thus it is with bonsai. Learning more about the rules may mean you appreciate a tree more as a bonsai, but that shouldn't mean you should find a plant that doesn't adhere to those rules ugly. It's just not a bonsai.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

The reason you were called out was because of the more or less confrontational tone of your comment and the evidence that you have not been here too long.

@Bananaman previously used the username @Smoke (Al Keppler), which goes back to 2006. Nonetheless, you are right. If you look up the contributions made under either account name they are for the most part unnecessarily abrasive or confrontational, and there is an obvious lack of positive contributions to this forum and indeed no sign of just plain participation in the community's shared interest in bonsai. After many people called him out for this, he recently created the following thread: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/al-kepplers-tips-for-better-bonsai.35041/

He has, as an aside, created an astonishing number of self-centered threads that are completely unrelated to bonsai:

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/retirement-party.34419/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/shout-out-to-a-few-fans.34368/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/are-you-a-parrot.34299/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/what’s-al-been-doing.30757/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/pretty-tough-at-home.29042/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/rip.23677/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/to-argue-could-you-put-your-best-foot-forward-to-post.27390/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/you-have-been-warned.33373/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/j...pular-with-the-in-crowd-hail-bananaman.35115/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-bitchiness-is-not-over-yet.35647/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/i-love-this-guy.35092/

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/let-me-try-this-one-more-time.34898/

At least he knows himself:

I'm frustrated and mad at the world.

 

[TN_Jim]

Do you think the French adapted the word from Latin because they developed their own style? Or, simply by nature of their own unique dialect..

Another example is the word, automobile...there is no refuting that other countries have different styles of (“cah” -in Boston), but should only one country use the term?

I am an individual from the U.S. who has been trying to immerse and educate myself in all of the many and deeply unique facets and approaches that is bonsai..to nearly the point of what some (my wife) would call obsession.

However, I have only been doing this for less than two years...does this disqualify me from the conversation?

I don’t know what this is, never thought of it as bonsai, but think it could be one day. For now I’ll call it contorted in southern antique enamel vessel. Thanks

 

[AZbonsai]

The All American Bonsai Award was awarded to my American Larch Bonsai

Did I miss the pic? Sounds great but I am more of a visual guy.

 

[Kendo]

If you read rockm post it pretty much tells it as it is and was. Do a little reading and research and I think you will be surprised. If not surprise you will at least find whom is ignorant.

You have me laughing at you now.

Bonsai start by transfer medicinal plants in Asia. This is the creation of Bonsai. Read some story you like, but this is the reality. Hai