New term for American bonsai

Joe Dupre'

Omono
Messages
1,979
Reaction score
4,542
Location
Belle Rose, La.
USDA Zone
9a
I'm about halfway through Bonsai Mirai's latest video "2018 BSOP Rendezvous-Sierra Juniper Demo". Ryan mentioned that we may need a new word for American Bonsai, just as the Japanese changed the original word from penn jing to bonsai. After trying to come up with an English word that might fit, I went to Latin for inspiration. After trying several combos, I came up with " Arbor Artis". "Arbor" meaning tree and "Artis" meaning art. Kind of fun going through different combinations.

The video is awesome, by the way.
 
sometimes I call it penjing just 'cause. This idea has crossed my mind
 
I would stay with "bonsai" myself. Dictionaries do not define what words mean. Dictionaries record how words are used. If enough people call what we do "bonsai" then it becomes correct. That's why there's several different uses under most words in the dictionary. In my lifetime, "gay" has COMPLETELY changed it's usage.
 
But it cuts out the rest of us......
How about ...
Murkin-tree-chopin

had to look up “murkin” like -isn’t that a pubic wig!!?

then discovered that that’s, merkin...totally different

then ya know...
Merkin-tree-chopin...alright too...alright too
 
had to look up “murkin” like -isn’t that a pubic wig!!?

then discovered that that’s, merkin...totally different

then ya know...
Merkin-tree-chopin...alright too...alright too
Man I almost fell of my chair laughing
 
I'm about halfway through Bonsai Mirai's latest video "2018 BSOP Rendezvous-Sierra Juniper Demo". Ryan mentioned that we may need a new word for American Bonsai, just as the Japanese changed the original word from penn jing to bonsai. After trying to come up with an English word that might fit, I went to Latin for inspiration. After trying several combos, I came up with " Arbor Artis". "Arbor" meaning tree and "Artis" meaning art. Kind of fun going through different combinations.

The video is awesome, by the way.
Agreed, one of the best videos I have seen. Ryan is a great talent, I hope his head doesn't blow up. I also agree with his position on demos, it is not always about the results but the process and demos show the process.
 
Vance, that boy can TALK, can't he?! He's the best I've seen. His "Spring Fundamentals" was a distillation of many basic bonsai practices..........and the reasons for using them.

I'll continue to refer to my trees as "bonsai", until the men with badges show up.
 
The following comment is my view on the case, a personal way of thinking. This is in no way an assault, critique or attack. My phrasing might be off, might come off hard or weird, but that's most likely because this isn't my first language. It's hard to find words in another language if you haven't used those words in ten years. Also, my views can always change, I'm open for discussion.

One thing I got out of the video, is that the Japanese changed Penjing to their own liking and thus created bonsai. I'm sure this doesn't cover it completely but, the Japanese removed the 'tiny landscape' element and created individual trees instead. Ryan said something like the trees in Japanese bonsai are more stylized in a way that romanticizes the tree itself (I can't remember the exact phrasing).
For now, Valavanis said the following in the All American Bonsai Award thread:
Personally, I do not see an American style of bonsai. But there are bonsai in America. When I view a bonsai I don't look for an American or Japanese or Chinese flag. Only the beauty of art is enjoyed by my eye. Many bonsai artists try very hard to design an "American style" bonsai and end up failing because they forgot about the basic design elements and create a poor bonsai..... Then they name it an "American bonsai."

As far as I know, and that's very little to be honest, Valavanis is schooled in Japan. His vision on bonsai is sculpted for a large part by the Japanese style and form. He says here that basic elements are forgotten and people create poor bonsai that way. But that's based on the Japanese school, based on the Japanese ways and taboos in bonsai. But if we hypothetically move away from the Japanese style and view that comment on its own, one could say something like "In the US people don't always follow the Japanese guidelines and sometimes reject the classical basic design elements, thus creating American Bonsai."
It's a less negative phrasing if you view it as a part of the Americansai (made up word) style characteristic.

Art isn't always defined by what the experts think about it, it's often about what the artists make out of it. No expert has called Dada art by the name Dada art before the artists signed a toilet bowl and called it dada. Maybe the Americansai is evolving just like that, it's moving away from traditional standards. It's very understandable that traditional artists wouldn't like that. I don't like Pollock because I'm more of a surrealism and hyperrealism fan. I grew up visiting European museums, surrounded by European classical paintings. I personally think Jackson Pollock has made the shittiest art in the world and that it shouldn't even be called art, it's just shitslings of paint on a canvas with a story fabricated to be able to call it art. It defies a lot of rules of classical painting. But it is art. He is an artist. Classical artists weren't happy about it either. They don't think it's art, they think it's crap. But that's usually because they're European schooled artists, judging the art from an European classical view. See how this relates to the bonsai art form?

It's one of the reasons why I asked about the judges, they are not American. They judge the All American Bonsai through mostly Japanese schooled glasses. There's nothing wrong with that, of course not! It's a bonsai competition, and bonsai are Japanese. But it did make me wonder, it made me think that for some reason, maybe the US hasn't found it's own style yet. There is not much difference, unless somebody will stand up and have the balls to redefine the art form with an all American signature. And that person will possibly be spewed out for the first 5 years, maybe even rejected from entering the bonsai competition.. Because it's just not bonsai.

I think it's too soon to say that there's enough deviation from traditional bonsai to call it something different. As much as I want you guys to evolve and develop your own style and art form, I really think it's not different enough.
The all American bonsai award was given to a bonsai tree, native to the US, in a US pot. But that's less of a difference than how the Japanese and Chinese art forms differ. It's basically the same result with different products.

Food for thought:
You can make Italian pasta dishes with American vegetables, American pasta, and American meat, served on an American plate, but as long as the recipe is Italian and the outcome is the same as in Italy, I'd consider it an Italian dish.
But when you guys make Mac'n'Cheese, it's far from Italian in my view. That's because the recipe is different, and so is the outcome. It isn't meant as a copy, it's meant as a dish on its own. It can be called a pasta, or impasta (pun intended) but I wouldn't dare call it Italian.
 
‘Impasta’ is just pretty damn funny! :)
I refer to my mutant, just-for-fun garden store rescues as ‘non-sai’. I’m in it for the flowers, and while those trees will never meet the standards for classical, exhibition bonsai, they sure are pretty when they bloom.
 
"Impasta" and "Non-sai"...........stellar!

What gets me about the Japanese "rules" is that, when confronted with a 900 hundred year old gnarled, tangled Juniper with spirals of deadwood and branches everywhere, a Japanese master never appears to be offended by it's non-conformity. He'll gladly buy it at the highest price, put his artistry to work and command a handsome price for the result. I agree wholeheartedly that these junipers are beautiful and would take one in a heartbeat. It just strikes me as somewhat hypocritical that the "rules" can be ignored when it is convenient.
 
I completely agree with @William N. Valavanis

Can anybody point to an 'american' tree (pictures, please) that would be so different that it would unarguably not qualify as, or fit the category of bonsai at all, but at the same time be bonsai-enough to warrant the aforementioned contrast to begin with?

What would be the goal of creating a new term? Would we need to create a new national event? The National Bonsai Exhibit, and then a separate National X Exhibit?
 
We don't need another freaking word to describe bonsai. That's one of the silliest things I've heard in quite a while. Call me cynical, but this smells like "branding" to me...

I went down the "Merican bonsai" rabbit hole a long while ago. I thought at the time that there was a unique way we Mericans (the euros were/are also guilty of this), were making something different than the Japanese and Chinese. I reached the conclusion that this line of thinking was nothing but ego and mostly sloppy bonsai. Sure, we have unique trees, but trying to "style" them in an "American" way usually involves using the artistic menu of bonsai. No way around it. The Japanese wrote the book on how to make a tiny tree look like a full sized one...Those techniques work the same way in Omiya and in New York, Sydney and London...

Good trees transcend nationalities --and I say that as the owner of mostly American species of trees as bonsai.

The "innovative" stuff in the U.S. that attempts to move away from bonsai proper is always a grab bag of very well done trees and thoughtful display to mostly crummy trees and kitsch.

I see no value in trying to put a new name on all of that. Similar things are happening in Europe and heck, even in Japan with new wave of display and tree images (some of the crap coming out of Japan as "new" bonsai is just, well, crap)...
 
"Impasta" and "Non-sai"...........stellar!

What gets me about the Japanese "rules" is that, when confronted with a 900 hundred year old gnarled, tangled Juniper with spirals of deadwood and branches everywhere, a Japanese master never appears to be offended by it's non-conformity. He'll gladly buy it at the highest price, put his artistry to work and command a handsome price for the result. I agree wholeheartedly that these junipers are beautiful and would take one in a heartbeat. It just strikes me as somewhat hypocritical that the "rules" can be ignored when it is convenient.

I find the last sentence strange. The "rules" include "rules" on ignoring them when a tree has a worthwhile nonconformity. The trick is not "convenient," as much as it is knowing when to ignore them. It's also pretty far from "hypocritical." BTW, the "rules" aren't rules. The Japanese don't call them rules. They are enforced only by viewers' eyes. The rules are more of a scaffolding on which a reliably effective bonsai can be made.
 
Vance, that boy can TALK, can't he?! He's the best I've seen. His "Spring Fundamentals" was a distillation of many basic bonsai practices..........and the reasons for using them.

I'll continue to refer to my trees as "bonsai", until the men with badges show up.
I agree, the concept of the American bonsai has been floated, suggested and debated around here, and at times and places even before this site was born. The end results were sketchy, ugly, and the concept used as an excuse to produce and justify some really butt ugly pieces exempt from critique or criticism being justified as American Bonsai. You were not allowed to say anything bad about the American Bonsai, and your criticism would fall into the pit of being mean-spirited and condescending. Thankfully Ryan has brought this up and has the established reputation visible for all to see that he knows what he is talking about. When Americans start producing bonsai that are as significantly and beautifully different from bonsai as bonsai was from Penjin then maybe a new name could be thought of for the American Bonsai.
 
In Penjin, Penjin rules apply. In Bonsai, bonsai rules apply. If the people want a new name, they'll need to come up with new rules. Without a definition, there isn't a defined style, and it works the other way around too.
You can paint an apple yellow and call it a lemon, but it will still be an apple. A ruined one, because that's not how apples are supposed to look. However, if there's a 'paint an apple and call it a lemon' competition, it would be possible to win a prize.
If one wants to redefine and reshape bonsai, then there must be something that is significantly different from the original idea. It can't be a bonsai and a Americansai at the same time.

When Americans start producing bonsai that are as significantly and beautifully different from bonsai as bonsai was from Penjin then maybe a new name could be thought of for the American Bonsai.
By default that would be impossible, because these trees would be bonsai. And if they're bonsai, they abide to bonsai rules. If we're going to start moving away from bonsai, something new could happen. But if we keep creating bonsai.. It's like copying bibles; they change over time, they evolve, but they're still bibles. Every bible is a book, but not every book is a bible. Other books are defined by way other characteristics.

I think that it works the same way with trees: every bonsai is a tree, but not every tree is a bonsai.
We judge trees by bonsai rules, coming from a bonsai background and bonsai-goggles; a tree can be a good bonsai or a bad one. But if we start judging trees in small pots by other standards, other characteristics and move away from bonsai as it's done in Japan, then there might be a new name applicable. I can use my tattoo machine on a wall, but that's not tattooing, it's pointillism. Tattooing is pointillism, but only when it's done on skin it can be called tattooing. I think that with sculpting trees, it works the same way.

Micro-Arbosculptum? Western tree sculpting in small pots? I'm voting in favor of allowing bar branches.

This is becoming a weird thought-experiment.
The point I want to make is that bonsai can't be bonsai and something else at the same time, because we know what bonsai is and what it's not. We can start doing something different to trees in small pots and give it a new name, but that should mean that it's not bonsai anymore, since bonsai rules and styling don't apply anymore. And usually, it turns out not to our liking because we're accustomed to what small trees in pots should look like based on the Japanese and Chinese foundations of bonsai and penjin.

Do I repeat myself a lot? I think I did. Sorry for that. It's friday.
 
In Penjin, Penjin rules apply. In Bonsai, bonsai rules apply. If the people want a new name, they'll need to come up with new rules. Without a definition, there isn't a defined style, and it works the other way around too.
You can paint an apple yellow and call it a lemon, but it will still be an apple. A ruined one, because that's not how apples are supposed to look. However, if there's a 'paint an apple and call it a lemon' competition, it would be possible to win a prize.
If one wants to redefine and reshape bonsai, then there must be something that is significantly different from the original idea. It can't be a bonsai and a Americansai at the same time.


By default that would be impossible, because these trees would be bonsai. And if they're bonsai, they abide to bonsai rules. If we're going to start moving away from bonsai, something new could happen. But if we keep creating bonsai.. It's like copying bibles; they change over time, they evolve, but they're still bibles. Every bible is a book, but not every book is a bible. Other books are defined by way other characteristics.

I think that it works the same way with trees: every bonsai is a tree, but not every tree is a bonsai.
We judge trees by bonsai rules, coming from a bonsai background and bonsai-goggles; a tree can be a good bonsai or a bad one. But if we start judging trees in small pots by other standards, other characteristics and move away from bonsai as it's done in Japan, then there might be a new name applicable. I can use my tattoo machine on a wall, but that's not tattooing, it's pointillism. Tattooing is pointillism, but only when it's done on skin it can be called tattooing. I think that with sculpting trees, it works the same way.

Micro-Arbosculptum? Western tree sculpting in small pots? I'm voting in favor of allowing bar branches.

This is becoming a weird thought-experiment.
The point I want to make is that bonsai can't be bonsai and something else at the same time, because we know what bonsai is and what it's not. We can start doing something different to trees in small pots and give it a new name, but that should mean that it's not bonsai anymore, since bonsai rules and styling don't apply anymore. And usually, it turns out not to our liking because we're accustomed to what small trees in pots should look like based on the Japanese and Chinese foundations of bonsai and penjin.

Do I repeat myself a lot? I think I did. Sorry for that. It's friday.
You are right to a point and yes I do not disagree but have a slightly different point of view. If the day comes when bonsai practiced in America becomes as I have described above in post #17 then it is fair to say it could acquire a new title because of the differences, which should be culturally driven, but the end result should be as compelling, beautiful, and attractive as anything like it. As to bar branches; they will never have favor. Rule #1 in American Bonsai: Ugly is still ugly and using the title American Bonsai or Micro-Arbosculptum as an excuse to promote ugly, the bar branch is still ugly and evidence of lazy work.
 
In Penjin, Penjin rules apply. In Bonsai, bonsai rules apply. If the people want a new name, they'll need to come up with new rules. Without a definition, there isn't a defined style, and it works the other way around too.
You can paint an apple yellow and call it a lemon, but it will still be an apple. A ruined one, because that's not how apples are supposed to look. However, if there's a 'paint an apple and call it a lemon' competition, it would be possible to win a prize.
If one wants to redefine and reshape bonsai, then there must be something that is significantly different from the original idea. It can't be a bonsai and a Americansai at the same time.


By default that would be impossible, because these trees would be bonsai. And if they're bonsai, they abide to bonsai rules. If we're going to start moving away from bonsai, something new could happen. But if we keep creating bonsai.. It's like copying bibles; they change over time, they evolve, but they're still bibles. Every bible is a book, but not every book is a bible. Other books are defined by way other characteristics.

I think that it works the same way with trees: every bonsai is a tree, but not every tree is a bonsai.
We judge trees by bonsai rules, coming from a bonsai background and bonsai-goggles; a tree can be a good bonsai or a bad one. But if we start judging trees in small pots by other standards, other characteristics and move away from bonsai as it's done in Japan, then there might be a new name applicable. I can use my tattoo machine on a wall, but that's not tattooing, it's pointillism. Tattooing is pointillism, but only when it's done on skin it can be called tattooing. I think that with sculpting trees, it works the same way.

Micro-Arbosculptum? Western tree sculpting in small pots? I'm voting in favor of allowing bar branches.

This is becoming a weird thought-experiment.
The point I want to make is that bonsai can't be bonsai and something else at the same time, because we know what bonsai is and what it's not. We can start doing something different to trees in small pots and give it a new name, but that should mean that it's not bonsai anymore, since bonsai rules and styling don't apply anymore. And usually, it turns out not to our liking because we're accustomed to what small trees in pots should look like based on the Japanese and Chinese foundations of bonsai and penjin.

Do I repeat myself a lot? I think I did. Sorry for that. It's friday.
Um, there's already a name for what you're describing--Topiary... ;-)
 
Back
Top Bottom