New LARGE Ponderosa Literati Group

[Francesco84]

Just sharing my new acquisition. MY first "big boy" Bonsai haha. Adjusted some of the wiring to give it a better profile for now and will have to repot come this spring(pot broke in transit).
Also, not sure if I want that extra length of the tree at the top either. The height is about 5ft looking to reduce to 3.5 -4ft max. Plans are basically to adjust the profile for now and repot and spring and let grow for another season... Was thinking of adjusting planting angle byt leaning a bit to the right.

 

[canoeguide]

Also, not sure if I want that extra length of the tree at the top either. The height is about 5ft looking to reduce to 3.5 -4ft max.

There's a lot that my eye likes about this and it's better material than anything that I have at this point, but that top has got to be restyled or removed eventually, which will aid your goal to make it shorter. It looks confused as to what style it should be. Or a bit like it's giving "jazz hands." Or a flailing arm inflatable tube man. There might be a good opportunity to chop back to the second right-hand branch from the top and make that the new apex but it's hard to tell in the photo.

Take all of that with a grain of salt and there is certainly no offense intended. I hope someone more experienced than I will have some good thoughts to share!

 

[Francesco84]

There's a lot that my eye likes about this and it's better material than anything that I have at this point, but that top has got to be restyled or removed eventually, which will aid your goal to make it shorter. It looks confused as to what style it should be. Or a bit like it's giving "jazz hands." Or a flailing arm inflatable tube man. There might be a good opportunity to chop back to the second right-hand branch from the top and make that the new apex but it's hard to tell in the photo.

Take all of that with a grain of salt and there is certainly no offense intended. I hope someone more experienced than I will have some good thoughts to share!

Thanks!

I totally agree. That top parts needs a new direction or just cut off. Very disconnected from the rest And yes, they are definitely jazz hands haha.
The main trunk is a little uninteresting so I need to leverage that left most branch to hide that flaw and create some interest in that part of the trunk too.

 

[Colorado]

Love Pondys

 

[August44]

Curious...where did you purchase your trees? Where do you live. I like the group, but do think it will have to reduced in height some day

 

[Francesco84]

Hi Peter,

Got this bad boy from Andy Smith at Golden Arrow Bonsai in SD. A great guy with awesome pondy and spruce yamadori. Great prices and his service is impeccable.

 

[wireme]

Hi Peter,

Got this bad boy from Andy Smith at Golden Arrow Bonsai in SD. A great guy with awesome pondy and spruce yamadori. Great prices and his service is impeccable.

Cool group, looks like it may have started life as a sprouted squirrel stash.

 

[August44]

By the looks of it, I would have guessed you got it from him. Nice snag. He's a very good guy and a good yamadori collector also. Peter

 

[Francesco84]

Styling update.

I’m having trouble deciding on apical direction of as well as which branch to use for apex on the primary trunk.

I do like the way the apex looks when its directions is towards the left like in the third trunk.
Stil need to work on trunk spacing too. Think it off to a nice start though.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice clump. A couple thoughts,
If this tree were mine, I would change the apex. The apex should be the highest part of the tree. The last picture you brought a lower branch up to be the apex, and used a side branch as the apex. To my eye this will always look awkward. I would bring your uppermost branch up to make the apex, and bring the "apex branch back down.



Second, embrace the height of this clump. Personally I might have kept it at the original 5 feet. Nothing wrong with tall, especially when the trunks suggest a light and airy feeling. But even with it pruned as low as it is, don't try to compress or hide the height. You want the vertical movement.

Next, Look carefully, perhaps bring out calipers and actually measure the diameters of your trunks. In order, if possible, the 2nd largest diameter trunk should be pruned to roughly 2/3rds the height of the largest diameter trunk. The #3 diameter trunk, if about the same as #2 can be the same height of #2, but if #3 is noticeably smaller diameter than #2, then #3 should be pruned to 2/3rds the height OF THE 2nd Trunk. Trunk #4 should be pruned to 2/3rds the height of #3. And finally #5 the smallest diameter trunk should be about 2/3rds the height of #4. This is a suggestion, not a "absolute rule" , but the visual progression of successive step downs will give a great deal of movement to this clump. The choice of using 2/3rds is a reference to the visual design "Rule of the Thirds". Experience from the design and fine arts world shows that Objects in a visual sequence should be 2/3rds or 1/3rd in height to keep the eye moving. IF exactly 1/2 it tends to Stop the Eye and create a static point.

So you can do it anyway you like, but if this clump were mine, I would stretch that tallest trunk up to its full height, then measure, then prune in order based on the descending diameters of the remaining trunks. Where trunks are actually the same diameter, you can keep them the same height, but as the trunks step down in diameter, shorten them to 2/3rds of the previous trunk.
Make sense?

 

[Francesco84]

Nice clump. A couple thoughts,
If this tree were mine, I would change the apex. The apex should be the highest part of the tree. The last picture you brought a lower branch up to be the apex, and used a side branch as the apex. To my eye this will always look awkward. I would bring your uppermost branch up to make the apex, and bring the "apex branch back down.
View attachment 286624


Second, embrace the height of this clump. Personally I might have kept it at the original 5 feet. Nothing wrong with tall, especially when the trunks suggest a light and airy feeling. But even with it pruned as low as it is, don't try to compress or hide the height. You want the vertical movement.

Next, Look carefully, perhaps bring out calipers and actually measure the diameters of your trunks. In order, if possible, the 2nd largest diameter trunk should be pruned to roughly 2/3rds the height of the largest diameter trunk. The #3 diameter trunk, if about the same as #2 can be the same height of #2, but if #3 is noticeably smaller diameter than #2, then #3 should be pruned to 2/3rds the height OF THE 2nd Trunk. Trunk #4 should be pruned to 2/3rds the height of #3. And finally #5 the smallest diameter trunk should be about 2/3rds the height of #4. This is a suggestion, not a "absolute rule" , but the visual progression of successive step downs will give a great deal of movement to this clump. The choice of using 2/3rds is a reference to the visual design "Rule of the Thirds". Experience from the design and fine arts world shows that Objects in a visual sequence should be 2/3rds or 1/3rd in height to keep the eye moving. IF exactly 1/2 it tends to Stop the Eye and create a static point.

So you can do it anyway you like, but if this clump were mine, I would stretch that tallest trunk up to its full height, then measure, then prune in order based on the descending diameters of the remaining trunks. Where trunks are actually the same diameter, you can keep them the same height, but as the trunks step down in diameter, shorten them to 2/3rds of the previous trunk.
Make sense?

Leo, thank you very much for spending the time to write this. Some great stuff in here to apply to the tree. It all makes sense and I am looking forward to trying to execute it! Some of the branching is sparse on those smaller trunks which might limit how much I can cut them down but either way I should be able to arrange them in some sort of ratio.
I also need to repot this year, so will have to do that in the next month. Would really like a slab of sorts for this guy.

 

[DBPooper]

Nice clump. A couple thoughts,
If this tree were mine, I would change the apex. The apex should be the highest part of the tree. The last picture you brought a lower branch up to be the apex, and used a side branch as the apex. To my eye this will always look awkward. I would bring your uppermost branch up to make the apex, and bring the "apex branch back down.
View attachment 286624


Second, embrace the height of this clump. Personally I might have kept it at the original 5 feet. Nothing wrong with tall, especially when the trunks suggest a light and airy feeling. But even with it pruned as low as it is, don't try to compress or hide the height. You want the vertical movement.

Next, Look carefully, perhaps bring out calipers and actually measure the diameters of your trunks. In order, if possible, the 2nd largest diameter trunk should be pruned to roughly 2/3rds the height of the largest diameter trunk. The #3 diameter trunk, if about the same as #2 can be the same height of #2, but if #3 is noticeably smaller diameter than #2, then #3 should be pruned to 2/3rds the height OF THE 2nd Trunk. Trunk #4 should be pruned to 2/3rds the height of #3. And finally #5 the smallest diameter trunk should be about 2/3rds the height of #4. This is a suggestion, not a "absolute rule" , but the visual progression of successive step downs will give a great deal of movement to this clump. The choice of using 2/3rds is a reference to the visual design "Rule of the Thirds". Experience from the design and fine arts world shows that Objects in a visual sequence should be 2/3rds or 1/3rd in height to keep the eye moving. IF exactly 1/2 it tends to Stop the Eye and create a static point.

So you can do it anyway you like, but if this clump were mine, I would stretch that tallest trunk up to its full height, then measure, then prune in order based on the descending diameters of the remaining trunks. Where trunks are actually the same diameter, you can keep them the same height, but as the trunks step down in diameter, shorten them to 2/3rds of the previous trunk.
Make sense?

Always excellent advice. I agree.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Nice clump. A couple thoughts,
If this tree were mine, I would change the apex. The apex should be the highest part of the tree. The last picture you brought a lower branch up to be the apex, and used a side branch as the apex. To my eye this will always look awkward. I would bring your uppermost branch up to make the apex, and bring the "apex branch back down.
View attachment 286624


Second, embrace the height of this clump. Personally I might have kept it at the original 5 feet. Nothing wrong with tall, especially when the trunks suggest a light and airy feeling. But even with it pruned as low as it is, don't try to compress or hide the height. You want the vertical movement.

Next, Look carefully, perhaps bring out calipers and actually measure the diameters of your trunks. In order, if possible, the 2nd largest diameter trunk should be pruned to roughly 2/3rds the height of the largest diameter trunk. The #3 diameter trunk, if about the same as #2 can be the same height of #2, but if #3 is noticeably smaller diameter than #2, then #3 should be pruned to 2/3rds the height OF THE 2nd Trunk. Trunk #4 should be pruned to 2/3rds the height of #3. And finally #5 the smallest diameter trunk should be about 2/3rds the height of #4. This is a suggestion, not a "absolute rule" , but the visual progression of successive step downs will give a great deal of movement to this clump. The choice of using 2/3rds is a reference to the visual design "Rule of the Thirds". Experience from the design and fine arts world shows that Objects in a visual sequence should be 2/3rds or 1/3rd in height to keep the eye moving. IF exactly 1/2 it tends to Stop the Eye and create a static point.

So you can do it anyway you like, but if this clump were mine, I would stretch that tallest trunk up to its full height, then measure, then prune in order based on the descending diameters of the remaining trunks. Where trunks are actually the same diameter, you can keep them the same height, but as the trunks step down in diameter, shorten them to 2/3rds of the previous trunk.
Make sense?

Nyet! These numbers you use are traditional non literati "rules" and IMO violate spirit of Literati. Apexes fall over and have branch take over in nature all the time. Personally have Bristlecone did this after snow last winter. Ex branch now apex is inspired idea and personally might consider removal of old apex down to base of new one(maybe)leaving a short jin there instead and keeping new "apex" moving right. Would also strongly consider removal of bar branches in most or all cases. Personally difficult to abide these most any time or tree. Likely would spread out trunks a bit/possibly remove one of twins next to biggest trunk. Five trunks "seems" too busy.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nyet! These numbers you use are traditional non literati "rules" and IMO violate spirit of Literati. Apexes fall over and have branch take over in nature all the time. Personally have Bristlecone did this after snow last winter. Ex branch now apex is inspired idea and personally might consider removal of old apex down to base of new one(maybe)leaving a short jin there instead and keeping new "apex" moving right. Would also strongly consider removal of bar branches in most or all cases. Personally difficult to abide these most any time or tree. Likely would spread out trunks a bit/possibly remove one of twins next to biggest trunk. Five trunks "seems" too busy.

Pots, then show us your virtual design. Your description sounds like a mess.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Leo, thank you very much for spending the time to write this. Some great stuff in here to apply to the tree. It all makes sense and I am looking forward to trying to execute it! Some of the branching is sparse on those smaller trunks which might limit how much I can cut them down but either way I should be able to arrange them in some sort of ratio.
I also need to repot this year, so will have to do that in the next month. Would really like a slab of sorts for this guy.

Trees don't always cooperate, branches are seldom exactly where the "numbers" would say they should be. Just use what you have. These deviations are what keep trees from looking "formulaic" even though you use a formula for design.

 

[Meh]

I like this clump. Very Hagedorn-esque. Leo's advice is great, though I would not say each trunk must progress in height the way he has described: with the exception of the biggest trunk and smallest trunk they are all similar enough that I would let position be your guide not trunk caliper.

Also it could just be the photo is flattening it, but it looks a little 2D--maybe pull that back trunk further back so it doesn't appear to be in the same plane as the second trunk from left. You could also have the second trunk from right come forward a bit more and obscure the back trunk a bit. Just something to provide some depth.

 

[Adair M]

Nyet! These numbers you use are traditional non literati "rules" and IMO violate spirit of Literati. Apexes fall over and have branch take over in nature all the time. Personally have Bristlecone did this after snow last winter. Ex branch now apex is inspired idea and personally might consider removal of old apex down to base of new one(maybe)leaving a short jin there instead and keeping new "apex" moving right. Would also strongly consider removal of bar branches in most or all cases. Personally difficult to abide these most any time or tree. Likely would spread out trunks a bit/possibly remove one of twins next to biggest trunk. Five trunks "seems" too busy.

Pots, please show us your Bristlecone Pine!

 

[Potawatomi13]

then show us your virtual design

Have no idea how to do and cannot design tree unless in personal presence. Only present general ideas. Personal creative muse obviously of different nature.

 

[Francesco84]

So....I started looking at how I can arrange the trunks better from that front. They are pretty tightly packed and the thickest trunk out the smaller 4 is obstructed from view. I turned the tree around and the smaller trunks look better to me, but the main trunk is slightly less interesting from this front. I can take that long branch on the right and use to add some movement to that long straightish main trunk. I also don’t like the apex as much from this angle too. Not as dynamic. But 75% of the tree looks better to me.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

So....I started looking at how I can arrange the trunks better from that front. They are pretty tightly packed and the thickest trunk out the smaller 4 is obstructed from view. I turned the tree around and the smaller trunks look better to me, but the main trunk is slightly less interesting from this front. I can take that long branch on the right and use to add some movement to that long straightish main trunk. I also don’t like the apex as much from this angle too. Not as dynamic. But 75% of the tree looks better to me.

From that angle, how about pulling the top right limb down and away from the trunk but all twisty? But still in a hanging mode.