Need to cut a pro nana back

[october]

View attachment 31499

So here is a picture of two Jap Garden Junipers. They are 10 years old. Stunted, keeping mature foliage(not immature foliage). Be honest gentlemen, how many times do you see mature foliage on a these plants. It has not out grown it's design, it doesn't have any reverse taper, it's been the same shape forever. I have intentionally kept them in a small pot, barely water them, and they grow 1/4 of an inch per year or less.

You create space in the foliage for light to enter, just like any other juniper. These trunks aren't growing who are you kidding. If they do swell and create inverse taper, you just cut off the branch and carve it down.

Vance has given good advice, but you two act like there is only one way to skin a cat. You're right and everyone else is wrong. Just because you been on the forum longer doesn't mean I don't know anything. If you have a picture of a japanese garden juniper that you have gotten to maintain mature foliage, let me see it.

Maybe I do know something, maybe you don't have to write me off as irrelevant. Proof is in the pudding. I was told I was Full Of Crap the other day on these boards because of my discussion about tamaracks that nobody else knew about. Again I had to show pictures to show people I do know my craft. What is it with power hungry people on these boards?

I am sorry you are having some trouble on the forums. Actually, I never meant any comments towards you at all. I was addressing the tree that the poster posted. I did not make any assessments based on your comments or anyone, they are completely my own. They were not meant to oppose your comments.

I like your junipers. Here is a procumbens that I have been working on for about 6 years. The foliage is pretty mature, each foliage pad was wired to have a uniform interior structure. Not only are there the appropriate spaces within the pads themselves, but in between them throughout the tree. The tree is only about 11 inches tall.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

View attachment 31499

So here is a picture of two Jap Garden Junipers. They are 10 years old. Stunted, keeping mature foliage(not immature foliage). Be honest gentlemen, how many times do you see mature foliage on a these plants. It has not out grown it's design, it doesn't have any reverse taper, it's been the same shape forever. I have intentionally kept them in a small pot, barely water them, and they grow 1/4 of an inch per year or less.

You create space in the foliage for light to enter, just like any other juniper. These trunks aren't growing who are you kidding. If they do swell and create inverse taper, you just cut off the branch and carve it down.

Vance has given good advice, but you two act like there is only one way to skin a cat. You're right and everyone else is wrong. Just because you been on the forum longer doesn't mean I don't know anything. If you have a picture of a japanese garden juniper that you have gotten to maintain mature foliage, let me see it.

Maybe I do know something, maybe you don't have to write me off as irrelevant. Proof is in the pudding. I was told I was Full Of Crap the other day on these boards because of my discussion about tamaracks that nobody else knew about. Again I had to show pictures to show people I do know my craft. What is it with power hungry people on these boards?

I try to never blow smoke if I can't build a fire. Here is a Picture of one of my Larch. Collected in 1982

Buds and new growth early spring



Developed Tree at a show 1996

You ask how many time do you see mature foliage on a PN. That's a moot point in my book, personally I prefer the juvenile foliage, the mature foliage is too coarse. However if you want fine mature foliage you go with a shimpaku.

 

[A Random User]

Wow, I am dumbfounded by the logic applied here and realize anything I have to say cannot possible contribute to a positive outcome for this tree. Sometimes you just have to let the kid touch the stove to understand the words hot and no have meaning.

The problem Vance... is that you continually tell someone what they should do
until it's is no longer a suggestion of help, but just that... "Telling someone what
they should do". Then you get upset when they don't listen to your advice...

I think you need to learn to listen to what the Original Poster's initial intentions
were with the tree, and offer advice to help them achieve "Their" intentions...
Not yours. This is what "Teaching" is...

It matters not if the idea is crap, or even if the eventual tree ends up being crap.
What matters... is that you give advice, and suggestions of perhaps what you would
do differently, explain why you would do this, then let them do what they want.
Let them learn from their mistakes...

You telling someone it's a mistake, does not actually teach someone like making the
mistake "itself" does. This is how someone "actually" learns...
Besides... who know's, the original poster might actually teach you a thing or two ???

 

[Vance Wood]

The problem Vance... is that you continually tell someone what they should do
until it's is no longer a suggestion of help, but just that... "Telling someone what
they should do". Then you get upset when they don't listen to your advice...

I think you need to learn to listen to what the Original Poster's initial intentions
were with the tree, and offer advice to help them achieve "Their" intentions...
Not yours. This is what "Teaching" is...

It matters not if the idea is crap, or even if the eventual tree ends up being crap.
What matters... is that you give advice, and suggestions of perhaps what you would
do differently, explain why you would do this, then let them do what they want.
Let them learn from their mistakes...

You telling someone it's a mistake, does not actually teach someone like making the
mistake "itself" does. This is how someone "actually" learns...
Besides... who know's, the original poster might actually teach you a thing or two ???

If you have someone come to you for help with arithmetic and is convinced that two and two equals five do you continue to reinforce his mistake?

I'm not telling anyone what to do. You know you can't win around here because of thinking like yours. I have followed newbie post where they complain because no one wants to answer some really ridiculous post. And then we get this one when someone offers some reason and logic to the idea with reasons why it's this way and not that way.

I'm sorry if you think I am wrong but I am not going to reenforce some idea that I know is going to wast a tree and a lot of time just so I can please people like you who don't come along with an idea until you think you jump in somebody's business.

Your answer is to let them learn from their own mistakes. Wow----that's really helpful, I hope you get treated as well. It's like telling someone to put a stick of dynamite up their backside, knowing what will happen if they do, and sitting back to watch what happens when it goes off. On the basics of this whole instruction where am I wrong?

I never told subnet not to do it, but as of now he really for sure knows that it wont work. Do I think he will succeed? He might be able to make the tree grow that way but it will never be anything better than a tree in a pot. He wanted to learn bonsai, at least that's what he said, not some half-assed, tossed off excuse of a bonsai tree in a pot. It's hard enough to make a decent bonsai, doing this to some newbie sucks the big one.

 

[A Random User]

I have a pro nana that I bought at a nursery a couple of years ago with the intention of doing a spreading live oak style with it. Besides repotting, I haven't done much to it during those 2 years. Last October, I thinned the branches to let a bit more light into the canopy, but I need to do much more.

As you can see in the second picture, the branches are very long as a result of the crowding and reaching for light. How can I work these back so that the foliage is closer to the main branches coming off of the trunk? It's not really ramification that I need right now as much as I need back-budding (I think).

How can I get this back to something manageable and when should I do it?

First of all... The very small branch at the base of the trunk in the first pic,
I would leave on the tree as a sacrifice branch. As tempting as it is to want
to remove... This will continue to add to the thickness of the trunk.

In order to grow new growth in towards the trunk your tree, it needs to be able
to have sunlight get into these areas. Without any light... nothing is going to
grow there.

Don't bother with pinching new growth... usually just helps produce new buds
slightly behind where pinched. Go through your tree and remove obviouisly
any dead foilage (check nooks and cranies), then remove all the weak growth...
Branches with very little foilage on it. When doing this I usually leave a stub,
not cutting the branch flush, often new buds will pop at the base.

Then what I do, is go through eliminating every other small branch, out
where it will not eventually be part of your design. So that more light will be
able to get in.

Two things to take into consideration ...

The first being, that no matter what plant you do work on, the more foilage you
have the better the tree will respond and bounce back from any work done.

The second being, with Junipers, common mistake is that one instantly cuts back
the large branches to try and help promote new foilage in by the trunk and to
start trying to compact the design... which is the last thing they should do.
Now you have just stressed the tree, and instead of producing new buds...
Your tree is kicked into survival mode.

As far as your design... I obviously live in Florida and every other tree is and
old oak around here. One could argue whether or not it is a style for junipers
or not... or one could just wait and see how it turns out.
Good Luck, keep us posted...

 

[Vance Wood]

First of all... The very small branch at the base of the trunk in the first pic,
I would leave on the tree as a sacrifice branch. As tempting as it is to want
to remove... This will continue to add to the thickness of the trunk.

In order to grow new growth in towards the trunk your tree, it needs to be able
to have sunlight get into these areas. Without any light... nothing is going to
grow there.

Don't bother with pinching new growth... usually just helps produce new buds
slightly behind where pinched. Go through your tree and remove obviouisly
any dead foilage (check nooks and cranies), then remove all the weak growth...
Branches with very little foilage on it. When doing this I usually leave a stub,
not cutting the branch flush, often new buds will pop at the base.

Then what I do, is go through eliminating every other small branch, out
where it will not eventually be part of your design. So that more light will be
able to get in.

Two things to take into consideration ...

The first being, that no matter what plant you do work on, the more foilage you
have the better the tree will respond and bounce back from any work done.

The second being, with Junipers, common mistake is that one instantly cuts back
the large branches to try and help promote new foilage in by the trunk and to
start trying to compact the design... which is the last thing they should do.
Now you have just stressed the tree, and instead of producing new buds...
Your tree is kicked into survival mode.

As far as your design... I obviously live in Florida and every other tree is and
old oak around here. One could argue whether or not it is a style for junipers
or not... or one could just wait and see how it turns out.
Good Luck, keep us posted...

Very good, just keep telling him to go the way he is going without even expanding his imagination to look for better options.

 

[A Random User]

If you have someone come to you for help with arithmetic and is convinced that two and two equals five do you continue to reinforce his mistake?

I'm not telling anyone what to do. You know you can't win around here because of thinking like yours. I have followed newbie post where they complain because no one wants to answer some really ridiculous post. And then we get this one when someone offers some reason and logic to the idea with reasons why it's this way and not that way.

I'm sorry if you think I am wrong but I am not going to reenforce some idea that I know is going to wast a tree and a lot of time just so I can please people like you who don't come along with an idea until you think you jump in somebody's business.

Your answer is to let them learn from their own mistakes. Wow----that's really helpful, I hope you get treated as well. It's like telling someone to put a stick of dynamite up their backside, knowing what will happen if they do, and sitting back to watch what happens when it goes off. On the basics of this whole instruction where am I wrong?

I never told subnet not to do it, but as of now he really for sure knows that it wont work. Do I think he will succeed? He might be able to make the tree grow that way but it will never be anything better than a tree in a pot. He wanted to learn bonsai, at least that's what he said, not some half-assed, tossed off excuse of a bonsai tree in a pot. It's hard enough to make a decent bonsai, doing this to some newbie sucks the big one.

Vance
You are assuming someone here has made some type of mistake ???
Or is about too...

The orginal poster said he bought the tree with the intention of doing what
he wanted to do with the tree...
Is this the mistake you are referring too ???

Correct me if I am wrong ??? But, didn't he also say that he discussed it with
the person he was buying it from and they both thought the tree that was
purchased would be the best canidate for the job ???

I mean, it's not like he bought a juniper suitible for a Bujin and decided to try
and make an Oak... Seeing the tree in the pics he posted, I think he can
accomplish the design he is wanting to achieve...
Is this the mistake you are referring too ???

Seems to me, that somehow you have decided here at B-Nut to be the
"Style Police"... telling people what will be a good Bonsai and what will
not... just because you think so ???

Just think of yourself as the "Joan Crawford" of Bonsai !!!

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance
You are assuming someone here has made some type of mistake ???
Or is about too...

The orginal poster said he bought the tree with the intention of doing what
he wanted to do with the tree...
Is this the mistake you are referring too ???

Correct me if I am wrong ??? But, didn't he also say that he discussed it with
the person he was buying it from and they both thought the tree that was
purchased would be the best canidate for the job ???

I mean, it's not like he bought a juniper suitible for a Bujin and decided to try
and make an Oak... Seeing the tree in the pics he posted, I think he can
accomplish the design he is wanting to achieve...
Is this the mistake you are referring too ???

Seems to me, that somehow you have decided here at B-Nut to be the
"Style Police"... telling people what will be a good Bonsai and what will
not... just because you think so ???

Just thing of yourself as the "Joan Crawford" of Bonsai !!!

I'm not pounding on subnet, he has made no response since post 11, for the last severally post I have been contending with people that have this idea that jus telling people to go ahead with a bad idea is a good idea. I am saying it is not. And if you were worth your salt you would too.

What really PO's me is that fact that some guy from some bonsai nursery sold him this tree for that style. He didn't care about Subnet, or offer to help him with anything other than taking his money.

 

[A Random User]

Very good, just keep telling him to go the way he is going without even expanding his imagination to look for better options.

And Who's to say that "his" option is not the better option ???

I mean personally, I wouldn't touch the tree...
Not trying to be snobby, on the contrary...
I have quite a few of these in my yard, about 10 times the size.
They make beautiful accents as yard plants, especially around my
Koi pond.

 

[A Random User]

I'm not pounding on subnet, he has made no response since post 11, for the last severally post I have been contending with people that have this idea that jus telling people to go ahead with a bad idea is a good idea. I am saying it is not. And if you were worth your salt you would too.

What really PO's me is that fact that some guy from some bonsai nursery sold him this tree for that style. He didn't care about Subnet, or offer to help him with anything other than taking his money.

And you wonder why he has not made a post ???

I just can't understand why you feel the need to make sure that everyone
here at B-Nut knows you are right, all the time...

I mean, who cares ???
Sometimes you just gotta move on and just let people try...

There was a time when you yourself were taking heat for
doing a redesign on one of your Mugos...
You had a beautiful tree, and decided to take out the saw and
cut half of it off. Folks thought you were crazy !!! But, you saw
something others hadn't.

 

[Vance Wood]

And you wonder why he has not made a post ???

I just can't understand why you feel the need to make sure that everyone
here at B-Nut knows you are right, all the time...

I mean, who cares ???
Sometimes you just gotta move on and just let people try...

There was a time when you yourself were taking heat for
doing a redesign on one of your Mugos...
You had a beautiful tree, and decided to take out the saw and
cut half of it off. Folks thought you were crazy !!! But, you saw
something others hadn't.

May be but the fact remains that what was happening with the Mugo was within the realms of the species and a goal of improving the style.

I made the comment about Subnet being taken down the road by the first bonsai guy he encountered. I have given some thought to what Subnet wanted to accomplish and I get even madder. Why didn't this bonsai nursery sell him something like a Boxwood, much more in the form and within the range of Subnet's desires for this particular style? There is only one answer, the bonsai nursery had no Boxwood to sell but they had to sell him something so they sold him the Procumbens Juniper. That's almost as bad as telling him he could grow it indoors as well. I sell trees at shows from time to time and I have refused to sell a tree (mostly Pines) to someone who wanted to grow the tree indoors.

You wrote: I mean, who cares ??? Well; it would seem that I do, why don't you?

You also wrote: I just can't understand why you feel the need to make sure that everyone
here at B-Nut knows you are right, all the time...

I don't know how to respond to that question. I guess for the same reason you feel it's necessary to point that out. Unless you have taken the time to check out every post on every subject I have ever made, which is anal in itself, I don't know how you could have come to that conclusion understanding that I have only seen your name and Avatar around here for a short time, which leads me to believe that you have changed you name for what ever reason and are not posting as Sawgrass.

 

[A Random User]

May be but the fact remains that what was happening with the Mugo was within the realms of the species and a goal of improving the style.

I made the comment about Subnet being taken down the road by the first bonsai guy he encountered. I have given some thought to what Subnet wanted to accomplish and I get even madder. Why didn't this bonsai nursery sell him something like a Boxwood, much more in the form and within the range of Subnet's desires for this particular style? There is only one answer, the bonsai nursery had no Boxwood to sell but they had to sell him something so they sold him the Procumbens Juniper. That's almost as bad as telling him he could grow it indoors as well. I sell trees at shows from time to time and I have refused to sell a tree (mostly Pines) to someone who wanted to grow the tree indoors.

You wrote: I mean, who cares ??? Well; it would seem that I do, why don't you?

You also wrote: I just can't understand why you feel the need to make sure that everyone
here at B-Nut knows you are right, all the time...

I don't know how to respond to that question. I guess for the same reason you feel it's necessary to point that out. Unless you have taken the time to check out every post on every subject I have ever made, which is anal in itself, I don't know how you could have come to that conclusion understanding that I have only seen your name and Avatar around here for a short time, which leads me to believe that you have changed you name for what ever reason and are not posting as Sawgrass.

Man... why didn't the seller just sell him and Oak ???
Would of solved all his problems then...

 

[A Random User]

I think the key to making the juniper look like an oak
is by doing a very loose foilage design, don't pad it up...
something more like what is in the pic.
Hope this helps...


In all actuality... would be a very easy design to do
with a juniper. And just think how little work one
would have to do, seeing that they wouldn't have to
spend so much time developing pads, maintaining
pads, etc ......

 

[Vance Wood]

View attachment 31510
I think the key to making the juniper look like an oak
is by doing a very loose foilage design, don't pad it up...
something more like what is in the pic.
Hope this helps...


In all actuality... would be a very easy design to do
with a juniper. And just think how little work one
would have to do, seeing that they wouldn't have to
spend so much time developing pads, maintaining
pads, etc ......

That's better, better than an image someone posted earlier that looked like a bush in a pot. At least this one would give him a direction to go when he figures out that the trunk is too small for the canopy.

Nice tree by the way but I don't think it looks like an oak but more like a pine or Juniper.

As to why not sell him an Oak? Well lets see; the nursery would have to have one available to sell, then Subnet would have to learn about leaf reduction and all of that other good stuff because most Oaks have very large leaves and are GENERALLY not good candidates for a bonsai because of all the genetic problems.

 

[subnet_rx]

I appreciate all the responses and different views that I have been given to think about over the course of this thread. I've been on this forum since 2008 and learning to practice bonsai since 2007. One thing I've learned that bonsai has is passionate people about their art.

It's not really feasible for me right now to make it to the closest bonsai club meeting in my area (which is 2 hours away), so I value any advice given. It's great that forums like this exist so that people like me can learn, but it's invaluable to be able to get specific advice on my trees.

Also, just to comment on one thing, I would not fault the nursery owner. I was on vacation and stopped in. I wanted to do the spreading oak style, needed it in a certain price range which wasn't much, and lived 9 hours away so I wasn't coming back any time soon, so he did the best he could given my criteria.

This is not my first mistake and won't be my last. For now, I think I'll keep simply maintaining this tree while I look for a direction that I and the tree would be comfortable with.

 

[A Random User]

This is not my first mistake and won't be my last. For now, I think I'll keep simply maintaining this tree while I look for a direction that I and the tree would be comfortable with.

Sorry, but this is even more rediculous than Vance not knowing what an Oak
tree looks like...

You bought the tree to style a certain way... then style it !!!
Here's your tree...


and here are some pics of Oaks...


One is never going to learn how to do Bonsai, feeling sorry for one's self, or listening
always to the advice of others...

I, for one am interested in seeing what you do...
and might actually seek out a Juniper and attempt an "Oak tree" design as well...
Seeing that junipers usually have very meandering trunks, I think one could
accomplish a very cool tree, where the branches bend down and touch the ground
as they often do around here where I live.

 

[A Random User]

As to why not sell him an Oak? Well lets see; the nursery would have to have one available to sell, then Subnet would have to learn about leaf reduction and all of that other good stuff because most Oaks have very large leaves and are GENERALLY not good candidates for a bonsai because of all the genetic problems.

Um... I think you missed the boat on this one.
If one goes back and looks... there was a bit of sarcasm
in my tone.

 

[Vance Wood]

Um... I think you missed the boat on this one.
If one goes back and looks... there was a bit of sarcasm
in my tone.

After Subnet's response in post #35 I am happy. From this point on I am through with this post, more specifically you.

 

[A Random User]

After Subnet's response in post #35 I am happy. From this point on I am through with this post, more specifically you.

Do I care ???

I do find it funny how you find the need to try and Bully
people who don't know much about bonsai, until you are
"Happy".


Sad part is that it is subnet that loses out...