Mycorrhizae, bacteria, and modern bonsai substrate

[cmeg1]

Thanks!

 

[fredman]

Not sure I follow you.

It's the ol "old dog...new trick thing"

 

[wireme]

I think you're right that modern substrates do support microbial/fungal life, but I also came across this quote from a scientific article, which seems to suggest that inorganic, soilless substrates do not support microbial/fungal life to the same degree as regular soil. If you have any sources on this subject, please send them my way--I find the subject fascinating.

"Microorganism population differ significantly between soilless culture systems and the indigenous microorganism type in each soilless system is unique. Organic (coconut-fiber) soilless substrate system had the highest amount of fungi and Fusarium spp., whereas the inorganic substrate (rockwool) contained the highest amount of fluorescent pseudomonads. In addition, aerobic bacteria could be dominant over fungi in inorganic (rockwool) substrate. Soilless substrates lack the diverse biological and microbial communities found in conventional agriculture soil. For soilless culture, a few studies have assessed the usefulness of inoculating plant with microorganisms at early stages but none of them showed a significant positive impact on cultivated crop."

(PDF) SOILLESS CULTURE: MANAGEMENT OF GROWING SUBSTRATE, WATER, NUTRIENT, SALINITY, MICROORGANISM AND PRODUCT QUALITY

PDF | The present article reviews the scientific literature on soilless culture and provided a critical examination of the micro-environmental factors... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Heya. These days by the time I’m done work and chores I’ve been to done to try to think and reply. Very interesting thread though, I hope to read it soon and maybe reply more.

 

[Harunobu]

So I kind of should know this, and I can find out by bare-rooting this cutting, but I rather let them be and be healthy.

I am rooting these cuttings of the azalea 'Matsunami', and I am rooting them inside, under a soda bottle dome, using a growth light and a heat map. And I lifted the bottle today and some of the soil came up. They only have been in there for 6 weeks, which should be enough for them to grow some roots.



But you can see in this picture there are quite a bunch of thin white filaments. I feel they cannot be roots. They grow so lateral, too near the soil line, and too long for them to be the roots of the cuttings. The medium is potting mix, kanuma, and perlite. Can some root fungi expert 100% confirm? If so, then with just garden soil and some substrate, after just 6 weeks, without any contact with azalea roots, you can get a whole bunch of mycorrhiza. I also have cuttings that are in peat and kanuma, so no fertilizer (the picture has potting mix soil, which has fertilizer). I could maybe observe if these are similar or different.

Now, temperatures have been high inside (22-28 C), so things grow quick. But this would show how easy it is to get a ton of mycorrhiza supporting an azalea cutting without any special treatments or inoculations.

 

[Bnana]

Look like roots to me.
There must be mycorrhizae, but that's not this.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Hmm... the photo could be a bit clearer, yet my blurry photo recognition gestalt and substrate connector seems to indicate roots rather than hyphae. Hers a photo comparison from my backyard.
cheers
DSD sends

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

Also vote for roots. Mycelium filaments have a diameter of about 5 µm. Too tiny to be seen on this picture.

 

[Harunobu]

Well, 5 µm is super-tiny. That's a little larger than a bacterial cell. Are you sure about that and do you have a citation? So those filaments are stings of single cells?

I couldn't get a better picture as a closeup would no longer be in focus on my phone. DSD's second picture is how azalea roots usually look. They are more yellowish, not bright white. I kinda want to check now on another pot of cuttings.

 

[Harunobu]

So I had to check so I dug one up. And yes, they are roots.



I washed away some of the soil, and the wetness made the roots stick together. But they are roots. Just a lot of very fine transparent ones. I guess I am just a champ at rooting cuttings. Never checked the root system of a 6 week cutting before.

So I guess when you can see mycorrhiza, you are seeing mats of the filaments? And the filament is way smaller than a plant root cell?

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

Well, 5 µm is super-tiny. That's a little larger than a bacterial cell. Are you sure about that and do you have a citation? So those filaments are stings of single cells?

I was a little mistaking 5 µm is in the lower boundary. It is between 5 and 10 µm which doesn't change the fact that it is "super-tiny" as you wrote.

So I guess when you can see mycorrhiza, you are seeing mats of the filaments? And the filament is way smaller than a plant root cell?

Yes and yes. This smaller diameter explain in part why mycorrhiza is a better way for trees to exploit the soil rather than growing their own cells: to explore the same volume of substrate, mycelium needs to build less organic structures and is thus less costly.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I’m doing first repost to 2 1/2” pots anywhere between 45-60 days, so you’re on the verge of pushing really fast.
btw: If you are out in the PacNW you have to watch out for all those spitzenkörpers pushing the hyphae all over your garden!
Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I’m doing first repost to 2 1/2” pots anywhere between 45-60 days, so you’re on the verge of pushing really fast.
btw: If you are out in the PacNW you have to watch out for all those spitzenkörpers pushing the hyphae all over your garden!
Cheers
DSD sends

First repotting plus 3.5 weeks.
Best DSD sends

 

[NaoTK]

I have a little project to inoculate my deciduous trees with different mushroom mycorrhiza. For years I would collect mushrooms from the forest and place the caps on various trees, hoping the spores would do their thing, but nothing ever happens.

This year I started taking the entire base of the mushroom, along with trace soil attached. I found the mycorrhiza will 'jump off' the mushroom and into the soil within a week. In the example below my birch forest became covered in white Amanita Muscaria mycorrhiza within a month.

Whether this gives the purported benefits in a bonsai context remains to be seen, but I will now select different mushrooms for my beeches, hemlocks, spruces, etc.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have a little project to inoculate my deciduous trees with different mushroom mycorrhiza. For years I would collect mushrooms from the forest and place the caps on various trees, hoping the spores would do their thing, but nothing ever happens.

This year I started taking the entire base of the mushroom, along with trace soil attached. I found the mycorrhiza will 'jump off' the mushroom and into the soil within a week. In the example below my birch forest became covered in white Amanita Muscaria mycorrhiza within a month.

Whether this gives the purported benefits in a bonsai context remains to be seen, but I will now select different mushrooms for my beeches, hemlocks, spruces, etc.

View attachment 620380

The spores alone should do the trick too, but grafting mycelium is way faster.
Mycelium is already multinucleated whereas spores need to find a partner spore to be effective growers.
In mushroom cultivation we tend to drop spores onto a substrate, like an agar plate, let them make mycelium and then use the strongest mycelium to inocculate new substrate.
Working from mushrooms is skipping a couple steps in that process but the result is the same.

Basically any store bought mushroom can do the same, so if you're ever interested in growing oyster mushrooms, get some live ones and inocculate some damp cardboard or damp straw.

 

[NaoTK]

I was really into mushroom cultivation back in the day. I had my own glove box and everything. I was just telling people not to waste time with spores.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I don't know if it's a waste of time, genetic diversity can be powerful. Let's say your mycelium connects with the soil but not with the plant, the spores might. They're present in numbers that can be incomprehensibly high.
In a game of chance, reliability is great, astronomically high numbers is better.