Mycorrhiza

[rockm]

Apparently truffles are mycorrhiza and grow in specific locations and in association with specific plants, including some tree species.

Think about how long it took the researcher in this article to come up with a successful way to induce myc growth in specific trees. It was a decade or more to find the correct combination. Myc in bonsai might not be a "truffle orchard" thing, but I have a suspicion that it's not as easy as dumping a $20 an ounce bottle of magic stuff into the soil...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...heir_lives_in_pursuit_of_desert_truffles.html

 

[gjantzer]

I have a suspicion that it's not as easy as dumping a $20 an ounce bottle of magic stuff into the soil...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...heir_lives_in_pursuit_of_desert_truffles.html

Once you have the right kinds and quantities of myco for the species of plant or tree you are trying to inoculate, it is as easy as making the spores available. Growing truffles is not comparable to introducing myco fungi to a root structure. Growing truffles involves finding the right combination of host roots combined with the myco to create an environment that promotes the growth of the truffles. If you are not trying myco with your trees i highly encourage you to give it a try.

 

[rockm]

Once you have the right kinds and quantities of myco for the species of plant or tree you are trying to inoculate, it is as easy as making the spores available. Growing truffles is not comparable to introducing myco fungi to a root structure. Growing truffles involves finding the right combination of host roots combined with the myco to create an environment that promotes the growth of the truffles. If you are not trying myco with your trees i highly encourage you to give it a try.

Seems to me this is splitting hairs. There is no guarantee with the high-priced myc contains any of the right kind that works with what you're applying it to, OR that the soil you're dumping it into will support it. If I'm paying what a Troy ounce of Silver costs for a bottle of fungus, there had better be some kind of evidence it's worth it.

I don't doubt that myc is beneficial. I just question paying for it at a nursery with a vested interest in selling you stuff. I have myc in my trees, but I have not applied it. The correct form showed up by itself without any help from me. It will in most cases.

 

[cmeg1]

As far as price,1oz will easily last all season.You mix 1/2 teaspoon per gallon and only apply 3oz of solution to each tree every three weeks.Extremely economical.
@rockm .I still need to read your article,I at work

 

[gjantzer]

Lol, its not splitting hairs. There has been decades of research and product development to create the right combo of myco to successfully inoculate MOST plant and tree roots. There is a wide variety of myco in that one product. That combo of ingredients is no accident. Determining the exact growing conditions preferred by a specific mushroom and then finding a way to recreate those exact conditions is very different. And sure myco happens naturally, just as most trees will continue to grow if planted in a small training pot. Or you could do something different and get faster results. Myco fungi is a multi billion dollar business for a reason.

 

[wireme]

Lol, its not splitting hairs. There has been decades of research and product development to create the right combo of myco to successfully inoculate MOST plant and tree roots. There is a wide variety of myco in that one product. That combo of ingredients is no accident. Determining the exact growing conditions preferred by a specific mushroom and then finding a way to recreate those exact conditions is very different. And sure myco happens naturally, just as most trees will continue to grow if planted in a small training pot. Or you could do something different and get faster results. Myco fungi is a multi billion dollar business for a reason.

Yes, I agree.
I think there is a time and place for the use of this product, it definitely can be very helpful in various circumstances. Disease prevention in young transplanted seedlings maybe the most consistently useful application.
That mix of Glomus endo species should work with damn near any tree from what I've read?

Check this out, awesome bonsai/myc info here.
http://www.parlonsbonsai.com/Mieux-comprendre-les-mycorhizes-en

 

[rockm]

Lol, its not splitting hairs. There has been decades of research and product development to create the right combo of myco to successfully inoculate MOST plant and tree roots. There is a wide variety of myco in that one product. That combo of ingredients is no accident. Determining the exact growing conditions preferred by a specific mushroom and then finding a way to recreate those exact conditions is very different. And sure myco happens naturally, just as most trees will continue to grow if planted in a small training pot. Or you could do something different and get faster results. Myco fungi is a multi billion dollar business for a reason.

Show me the proof these product's "Shotgun" approach, I mean beyond the reviews written by plant nurseries and headshops selling them. The combo of ingredients is a "best guess" as to what works.

Myco IS a multi-billion dollar industry, so is the pharmacological industry. Doesn't mean claims aren't overblown, or that the product is even necessary. Shows that the marketing is spot on.

 

[gjantzer]

Show me the proof these product's "Shotgun" approach, I mean beyond the reviews written by plant nurseries and headshops selling them. The combo of ingredients is a "best guess" as to what works.

Myco IS a multi-billion dollar industry, so is the pharmacological industry. Doesn't mean claims aren't overblown, or that the product is even necessary. Shows that the marketing is spot on.

There is a world of information out there, including full blown studies with documented results showing the benefits of myco. Feel free to show yourself. Any information that someone else shares you are not going to believe. You can continue to dig your heels in if you want. Or you can open your mind and do some of your own research. The fact that you think identifying the right myco spores for each species of tree and recreating them in a recipe is the same as identifying a growth environment for truffles and recreating that environment precisely are the same thing tells me you have done very little research about myco to date. Spend a few hours reading some of the papers written on myco THEN make up your mind.

 

[rockm]

You miss my point. I have no doubt that myc is beneficial. What I am questioning is the value of pouring a $20 an ounce bottle of it into bonsai soil and expecting a miracle--which is what is being sold here in small containers.

If you read what I've written carefully, without the LOL smirk and the holier-that-thou head shake, I am not digging my heels into the science.

I AM digging my heels at trying to sell me something that I already have. I have myc in my bonsai soil that I don't have to guess at. It arrived by itself in the right form. Ever hear of "being able to sell ice to eskimos?"

Spare me the "you're ignorant" crap. I have read extensively on the subject.

 

[M. Frary]

I never ever worry about mycorrhizae. Should I?
Nahh. If trees need it to grow they have to come with it already there. How else can a collected stump,roots washed clean and essentially planted in sterile substrate thrive?

 

[gjantzer]

I never ever worry about mycorrhizae. Should I?
Nahh. If trees need it to grow they have to come with it already there. How else can a collected stump,roots washed clean and essentially planted in sterile substrate thrive?

So you don't fertilize either?

 

[wireme]

Sometimes I collect the fertilizer water pouring out of the drain holes of a healthy tree with good myc growth, add some carb water and pour that onto newly collected trees of the same species. Sometimes I bring home caps of wild mushrooms that I know to be symbiotic with certain tree species and drop them on the soil. I do think there can be a time and place for the bottled stuff but I prefer to work with native local species so I've never used it.

 

[gjantzer]

You miss my point. I have no doubt that myc is beneficial. What I am questioning is the value of pouring a $20 an ounce bottle of it into bonsai soil and expecting a miracle--which is what is being sold here in small containers.

If you read what I've written carefully, without the LOL smirk and the holier-that-thou head shake, I am not digging my heels into the science.

I AM digging my heels at trying to sell me something that I already have. I have myc in my bonsai soil that I don't have to guess at. It arrived by itself in the right form. Ever hear of "being able to sell ice to eskimos?"

Spare me the "you're ignorant" crap. I have read extensively on the subject.

Who is promising a miracle?
Sure myco will happen naturally. People add the myco spores to speed up the growth of the mycelium so the plant can absorb nutrients more quickly (and not wait for nature to eventually reach a critical mass of myco). Disease resistance is an added benefit. That $20 bottle will literally do 100 plants. $.20 a plant is too much to spend for a healthier, faster growing plant? It works and it is cheap. I'm not claiming you're ignorant, I just believe that your perception of the cost and value of adding myco spores is incorrect.

 

[wireme]

I have seen case studies where the addition of products like this to weak plants was detrimental. It is a two way partnership, the plant feeds the myc carbs in return for the myc benefits.
A hypothesis is that sometimes myc can feed off the plants quicker than the benefits it delivers. Direct feeding with carbs as fertilizer can help offset this perhaps.
There is a lot that people think they know about all this but much more still to learn.

 

[chicago1980]

Good stuff going on here. Photo from a classmates pine last week.

 

[fredman]

add some carb water

what is carb water?

 

[MichaelS]

I have myc in my trees, but I have not applied it. The correct form showed up by itself without any help from me. It will in most cases

.

This is true. I have never bought the stuff but I have had it appear spontaneously in all my pines, Arbutus, Hornbeams etc., and that is just what I can see. You can't always see myco. If you are concerned your tree needs inoculation, just dig in a teaspoon of soil from another tree or better still some soil from a local forest. (and cut back on the Phosphorus) Nature will take care of the rest.

 

[wireme]

what is carb water?

Water with a bit of honey or molasses or pasta water.... or some kind of carb/ sugar product from a grow shop.

 

[fredman]

Interesting. I like that. That is food for the micro organisms (not so much the mycorrhizae) right? I use worm tea from my worm farm to feed the micro organisms...

 

[M. Frary]

So you don't fertilize either?

Miracle grow. No organics whatsoever.