My first and only JBP in central Texas

[Mame-Mo]

I don't really think I can 'train' this or make any big changes to it at the moment, but just for starters - are there any health indicators for pines that might keep my from killing this little guy? Pines in general are a totally mysterious topic for me so any other advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Handsome John]

I can see a nice exposed root with a nice twisted compact trunk! nice starting material. Whats the soil like? because that is the biggest factor I find with pines is drainage and proper watering techniques. I would maybe think about getting it into a little larger container to get some real vigor to it but that's just my opinion

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You have to make sure he doesn't die. That is a tenuous little pine there.

When you look at a pine, think of each needle as a solar generator for the tree. Even though you might want to remove more for aesthetic / design reasons, you have to always understand that the removal of a single needle has an impact on the tree. No big deal if you have a large specimen... but with a little twisty exposed root... you need to almost count the needles and make sure you don't reduce beyond a certain point.

 

[Adair M]

I think trying to make an exposed root tree out of that little guy is asking too much. It’s a small, young tree. Those tiny roots are barely enough to sustain the foliage you have, and there’s zero margin of error.

The literati image of the trunk is a sufficient challenge, and for the health of the tree (which means: “so that it doesn’t die”), I suggest up potting in a slightly larger container, and deeper so that those roots are covered with soil.

I really don’t think it would survive a Dallas summer exposed like that.

 

[Shibui]

I really don’t think it would survive a Dallas summer exposed like that.

Can you tell me why you think it would not survive a Dallas summer with exposed roots? It seems to me that any exposed root just becomes 'trunk'. It is the parts under the ground that are performing the duties of roots so as long as there's enough roots in the pot I think it would be fine.
The biggest factor for me is the size of that pot. and I note that Adair has suggested upsizing. Smaller pots do dry out very quickly in hot weather. You'll need some top class care and some special techniques to get any tree in a really small pot through a hot summer. I know I gave smaller bonsai away in frustration in the early days because so many just died. Only started getting small again when my skills and knowledge had improved a lot.

are there any health indicators for pines that might keep my from killing this little guy?

Assuming that you already know that pines need to live outdoors and that misting the leaves is not going to keep it alive - all bonsai need proper watering regularly.

Pines in general need plenty of sun. Too much shade can weaken or kill most pines. For really small pots you will probably need to provide some afternoon shade to stop it baking on hot days but in general, more sun is better.
Pines generally do not sprout new shoots on bare wood so you cannot allow the shoots to grow long for more than a couple of years at a time. You will need to find out about JBP pruning and maintenance techniques. Also note that many growers seem to have their own individual methods and each of them will insist that theirs is the only way.
Pines do not like constantly wet roots and can suffer if the mix is constantly waterlogged. An open, free draining mix seems to be the answer and I can water my pines twice a day in summer without any problems.

 

[Adair M]

Those thin little roots are weak. Any kind of wind will bend them, creating cracks. Wind can then dry out the cambium. Breaking the lifeline. Small pot dries out quickly. Possibly killing the little feeder roots just under the surface.

I’m not going to say it can’t be done. But it’s a very high risk to keep it the way it’s potted. If he wants to keep it as an exposed root, do something to protect them for a couple years so that they thicken a bit, at least enough to support the weight of the rest of the tree.

You could just bury the pot under an inch or two of marbles! The marbles would help support the exposed roots while the tree grows stronger. After they’ve built up a bit of bulk, remove the marbles.

 

[Shibui]

Maybe you have stronger winds over there. Individually those roots are weak but all of them are supporting this tree. My estimate is there is at least as much bulk in those roots (all together) as the trunk above so should be plenty to resist the small wind pressure that the tiny top will catch. As always, just my opinion.
Pot size does concern me as it does you. That's where I see the far bigger problem.
If the pot was entirely buried in a larger pot of stones, coarse sand or your marbles I think it would provide the extra buffer from extreme heat and drying. Not entirely clear whether that's your idea with the marbles or just putting them on top of the pot among the roots to support the trunk. Just one possible approach to maintaining and developing this little pine.
A larger pot would probably be best. Not only provide better water to help keep it alive but also allow this tiny tree to grow and develop a bit in the short term.

 

[0soyoung]

You could just bury the pot under an inch or two of marbles! The marbles would help support the exposed roots while the tree grows stronger. After they’ve built up a bit of bulk, remove the marbles.

Or nest it in a larger pot, like a bulb pan. say, of substrate AND bury those roots in marbles (I use Hydroton clay beads). Might top dress with chopped sphagnum when it gets hot, just to keep those young puppies a little cooler this summer.

 

[Mame-Mo]

As far as the roots are concerned, I purchased the tree in this state and the roots were already exposed. I have not done anything (repotting, trimming, wiring etc.) in an effort to avoid stressing the tree as it was shipped from Hong Kong. I felt that the shift in climate and spending a week in a box was probably pretty rough on it. It has simply been watered and appreciated for the month I've had it. As for their structural strength of the roots, they seem to be fairly strong. We had a lot of heavy wind in the last few weeks and it was blown off of my bench at one point (which knocked some of the soil out of the pot) and it didn't break anything. That said I now have to bring it inside if the weather even suggests wind as I don't wish to repeat that event.
The soil it is in honestly looks like sand with some gravel in it. It's not really like any soil I've ever seen in my limited experience. It seems like it was designed to hold a lot of water, and it doesn't percolate very well. That said, it holds moisture well for a bit but it isn't wet per se, which seems good for my area.
Speaking to the point of the health of each needle being paramount. It does seem like the previous owner/caretaker actually trimmed the needles short. The ends of each needle seem to show signs of being sheared to look shorter. I'm not sure if that will hurt the tree, but it certainly raised a slight bit of concern.
Also regarding a larger pot, does anyone have a suggestion on a larger pot that might look nice with the tree? It seems like it might just be easier to re-pot it than going to the trouble of burying the small pot for summer (which is most of the year here).

Ultimately the tree was only about 20 dollars so it's sort of a trial run to see if I can manage a pine. For some reason I have been drawn to them lately and I couldn't justify getting a larger specimen until I was convinced I could care for a pine in the first place.

 

[Adair M]

FYI, larger trees are easier to keep than smaller trees.

 

[markyscott]

I have not done anything (repotting, trimming, wiring etc.) in an effort to avoid stressing the tree as it was shipped from Hong Kong.

Why import a single black pine seedling from Hong Kong to see if you can care for it? If it dies, you’ll have learned very little - maybe it died because of your care or maybe it died because it was stressed due to the shipping from overseas. Honestly, you are 3 years away from having dozens that look way better than that and much healthier. Read this thread and the links I referenced, buy a couple hundred seeds and start growing them. You can even skip the cutting part I talk about. The cool thing is that growing from seed, you really only have to learn a little bit every year. First year you learn about soil and how to water and fertilize. Try some different soils and see how they work for you. Second year you can repot. Third year you wire. If a few die along the way - who cares? They’re just seedlings and you’ll have definitely learned something from it. Maybe keep some in different places in your yard - keep some in the full sun and some in part shade. If the ones in shade die and the ones in the sun thrive - then you’ve learned something. You can plant hundreds for less than the cost of importing that little tree! And then you get to practice a lot. Grow some exposed root. Grow some root over rock. Grow some big and grow some small. Three years from now you’ll be teaching us about how to care for black pine trees in central Texas.

 

[markyscott]

Oh - and come to the convention in Houston. This will be a great event, featuring 13 world-class artists, great workshop material, 7 fantastic demo trees, a huge exhibit space, over a dozen FREE seminars and tons of fantastic vendors. The guest list is already over 200 people and workshop space is going very quickly. Lot’s of black pine growers will be there with tons of collective experience about growing pine trees in Texas.

http://houstonbonsaisociety.com/abs-convention/

 

[Shibui]

Speaking to the point of the health of each needle being paramount. It does seem like the previous owner/caretaker actually trimmed the needles short. The ends of each needle seem to show signs of being sheared to look shorter. I'm not sure if that will hurt the tree, but it certainly raised a slight bit of concern.

Cutting needles short is something that is done quite often with pines. It should not affect the health of your tree and can be used to balance the strength of different branches. Your tree has one very strong branch and a couple of weaker ones. The top shoot is much stronger than the side one and the back branch looks like the weakest. This is normal - trees try to grow to full size so top shoots are usually stronger than others. For bonsai we don't want the tree to grow full size so we try to reduce the strength of the dominant apex and build more strength in the side branches. Shoots that have more needles will also grow faster and larger in spring. One balancing technique is needle plucking where individual needles are pulled off. Generally pull or cut off enough needles so that every shoot has about the same number to help all shoots grow the same in spring.
I think it would be very helpful to try to get to some bonsai events like the convention mentioned above so that you can talk to experienced growers about the methods used to maintain black pines as they do require quite different methods to many other trees.

 

[Mame-Mo]

Oh - and come to the convention in Houston. This will be a great event, featuring 13 world-class artists, great workshop material, 7 fantastic demo trees, a huge exhibit space, over a dozen FREE seminars and tons of fantastic vendors. The guest list is already over 200 people and workshop space is going very quickly. Lot’s of black pine growers will be there with tons of collective experience about growing pine trees in Texas.

http://houstonbonsaisociety.com/abs-convention/

I was just going through this thread and came across my old post. I was unaware the pine was from Hong Kong when I got it. I saw that it was only $20 dollars on a bonsai forum and shot first without asking questions. That said so far it is producing candles and seems to be more or less healthy from what I can tell.

I actually did end up going to the convention. I could only go for a couple hours so I just viewed the exhibit and vendor area. I ended up getting a much larger (although probably destined to be shohin) black pine and had a good conversation with the grower from Dallas. I aspire to grow some pines from seed someday right now I just lack sufficient space to do so.

 

[Adair M]

I was just going through this thread and came across my old post. I was unaware the pine was from Hong Kong when I got it. I saw that it was only $20 dollars on a bonsai forum and shot first without asking questions. That said so far it is producing candles and seems to be more or less healthy from what I can tell.

I actually did end up going to the convention. I could only go for a couple hours so I just viewed the exhibit and vendor area. I ended up getting a much larger (although probably destined to be shohin) black pine and had a good conversation with the grower from Dallas. I aspire to grow some pines from seed someday right now I just lack sufficient space to do so.

Was it Howard and/or Sylvia Smith? They’re excellent at growing JBP in Texas.

 

[Mame-Mo]

Was it Howard and/or Sylvia Smith? They’re excellent at growing JBP in Texas.

No, it was next to their booth but it was a guy named Christian. He said he was more of a hobbyist, and just needed to get rid of some of the pines he had grown. I will likely make a new post about it very soon. I would like as much information as I can possibly get about growing it out.

 

[Colorado]

Cool little tree if you ask me! I’d be interested in seeing some updates down the road.

Good luck ?

 

[Mame-Mo]

Here are some updated photos, the tree is producing candles so that seems like a good sign.

 

[Mame-Mo]

As a follow up question, with such small candles would it be best to just let them grow without de-candling in summer?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

As a follow up question, with such small candles would it be best to just let them grow without de-candling in summer?

That is a complicated question. I am assuming that you want to keep the current design and you want to move to refinement (versus development) of your pine.

If you let the tree run, it will be better for the tree, but it will ruin your design of a tiny little exposed root shohin. However if you look at your tree it is really weak. It looks to be about three years old (from seed). There is almost no ramification - you have a total of five candles on the entire tree. In a perfect world you would want to decandle this year and by next year your tree would only be slightly taller, but would have ten candles... etc.

Decandling is a stressful experience for the tree, and the fewer secondary needles are on the tree, the more stressful it is. The tree has to be as strong as possible to push a second set of candles in the growing season. Timing of decandling is critical, as is the timing of your fertilization. You want to fertilize heavily until you decandle, and then hold off fertilizing until the tree has pushed its second set of candles. You want the tree to be as strong as possible so it has the strength to push the new candles, but you don't want to fertilize while the new candles are extending because you will get too much elongation out of them. As soon as the new candles have stopped elongating and have opened you can start fertilizing again.

The sooner you decandle in the spring, the less stressful it is for the tree (as long as it is strong) and the larger the second set of candles will be. If you wait longer (late June or early July), it is a little more stressful for the tree, and the second set of candles will be small. If you wait TOO long (like until August), the tree won't push candles at all, and will only set buds for next year... which in the case of a small tree with few secondary needles could be a death sentence.

So I will be interested to hear what others say, but if it were my tree I would fertilize the heck out of it right now and decandle it in a few weeks (mid/late May). This is early for decandling, and will hopefully not kill the tree. You will be rolling the dice, but it is the only way you will develop ramification while keeping the trunk small and tenuous. Needless to say, do not remove a SINGLE needle that is on the tree currently. You will need every one.

Small exposed root shohin pines are not common for the simple reason that you have to keep the tree on the edge of extinction to maintain the design. If you develop too much ramification, the trunk will thicken too much, and you will have to change your design plans.

Look at this exposed root black pine by Jonas Dupuich. Look at the ramification! At the same time... look at the trunk caliper to support it.