Multiple flushes of growth in Pines

[Brian Van Fleet]

Just seeing this for the first time.

Looks like maybe I wasn't dumb for calling my loblollies triple flush pines. cool

I wonder if it's detrimental to decandle more than once a season? Right now the trees are so vigorous I couldn't even imagine trying to ramify any part if it's going to throw shoots at this pace

There would be no benefit to decandle twice in a season. By definition, you’d be cutting it back to the same spot twice, for what purpose? If you want shorter needles, you simply decandle later.

 

[GGB]

@Brian Van Fleet yes you're right about that. but anything that extended before the last/only decandle (one or 2 bursts/flushes) will have long needles and potentially long internodes. I guess they would be needle plucked for appearence sake? Unfortunately I have nothing anywhere near the ramification stage so I can only wonder about maintaing a finished look.
At some point I'll buy something larger and just treat like a "finished bonsai" just to see how much I can dwarf and manage growth on the branches.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

@Brian Van Fleet yes you're right about that. but anything that extended before the last/only decandle (one or 2 bursts/flushes) will have long needles and potentially long internodes. I guess they would be needle plucked for appearence sake? Unfortunately I have nothing anywhere near the ramification stage so I can only wonder about maintaing a finished look.
At some point I'll buy something larger and just treat like a "finished bonsai" just to see how much I can dwarf and manage growth on the branches.

Yep, doing it is the best way to learn.

 

[Adair M]

@Brian Van Fleet yes you're right about that. but anything that extended before the last/only decandle (one or 2 bursts/flushes) will have long needles and potentially long internodes. I guess they would be needle plucked for appearence sake? Unfortunately I have nothing anywhere near the ramification stage so I can only wonder about maintaing a finished look.
At some point I'll buy something larger and just treat like a "finished bonsai" just to see how much I can dwarf and manage growth on the branches.

Tell you what, you go get a pine, decandle it, and if the problem occurs that you are all worried about actually happens, we’ll deal with it then.

 

[GGB]

Word, I think I can get a hold of a larger one by spring. They aren't super common around here as the winters beat them up. But I know of one nursery that may have a few maturish trees.
I get excited and ahead of myself a lot, try to be careful how much of it I let out here. But regardless, I always appreciate the words of guidance @Adair M @Brian Van Fleet

 

[River's Edge]

This topic is of interest as the literature often contradicts ones experiences on this topic. I would have responded sooner however i was away from the electronics for a few days vacation.
The JBP in my nursery that are under development usually produce two and sometimes a third flush. This is under heavy fertilization, lots of water and a long sunny growing season. The JRP do as well but not as vigorously or as frequently as the JBP. None of my other pines do so normally but can be induced to do so with extra care and decandling. Pinus Nigra is in that category.

 

[my nellie]

Since 08 August when pruned, here is the photo of one of the branches, the most productive
21 new shoots along the length of the branchlet!!!


It seems to me that this proliferate growth, indeed!
It is amazing how much vigor the young saplings show!
On the following branchlet there are 7 new buds at the site of cut/pruning.


I am sure that all of you who have been growing Pines from seed have experience the same or similar.
But for me this is the first time and this is exciting, indeed! Like @Riversedgebonsai had told me in the past.
Thank you @Anthony for insisting and "pressing" on me to participate in the contest!

 

[Anthony]

Αλεξάνδρα,
W.hen they are very healthy, you can go lower down
the branch and for safety's sake find the lowest .
3 sets of shoots, and cut the branch leaving the 3 sets
of shoots.

Go slowly and take your time shortening back, okay.
Best of growing.
Anthony

 

[my nellie]

Thank you @Anthony !

 

[petegreg]

Good thread, Alexandra. Some interesting things are happening here.
This 5-6yo P. pinea seedling was left to do its things this season. No pruning. The core of a future tree still has only juvi needles. But a lot of new growth popped closer to the trunk as you can see... with no insult this year.


... and more interesting... this young pine has already some mature needles on a sacrifice branch, and look, first real buds. It means to me it will grow and develop faster with this kind of growth.

 

[my nellie]

Excellent Peter!

... and more interesting... this young pine has already some mature needles on a sacrifice branch, and look, first real buds. It means to me it will grow and develop faster with this kind of growth.

How old is this young tree?
Is it P. pinea, too?

 

[DirkvanDreven]

JBP seedling, 5 or 6 years old. Groundgrowing for a couple of years. Summershoots, without candle cutting. Other young pines in my garden do this to.

 

[my nellie]

JBP seedling, 5 or 6 years old. Groundgrowing for a couple of years. Summershoots, without candle cutting. Other young pines in my garden do this to.

Thank you for your input, Dirk.
Have you noticed new shoots forming twice or more per season?

 

[DirkvanDreven]

Thank you for your input, Dirk.
Have you noticed new shoots forming twice or more per season?

Twice, not more, but never the centre bud, always one or two smaller buds.

 

[GGB]

Very interesting to see that halapensis and pinea look super similar to taeda in those close ups. All are very warm weather pines if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps ancient relatives.

I'm worried my p. taeda won't harden off in time for winter here. My growing season is much shorter and some young needles have yet to develop and harden. The top of my largest tree has been sagging since the nights got cooler haha. I wear my zonal denial like a badge

 

[River's Edge]

Since 08 August when pruned, here is the photo of one of the branches, the most productive
21 new shoots along the length of the branchlet!!!
View attachment 210622 View attachment 210623

It seems to me that this proliferate growth, indeed!
It is amazing how much vigor the young saplings show!
On the following branchlet there are 7 new buds at the site of cut/pruning.
View attachment 210624

I am sure that all of you who have been growing Pines from seed have experience the same or similar.
But for me this is the first time and this is exciting, indeed! Like @Riversedgebonsai had told me in the past.
Thank you @Anthony for insisting and "pressing" on me to participate in the contest!

One of the great features of growing young stock is the ability to test various pruning, decandling, needle reduction techniques on parts of the tree not required for future design. This adds considerable opportunity to hasten the learning curve without adversely affecting progress on the actual design.

 

[petegreg]

Good thread, Alexandra. Some interesting things are happening here.
This 5-6yo P. pinea seedling was left to do its things this season. No pruning. The core of a future tree still has only juvi needles. But a lot of new growth popped closer to the trunk as you can see... with no insult this year.
View attachment 210685

... and more interesting... this young pine has already some mature needles on a sacrifice branch, and look, first real buds. It means to me it will grow and develop faster with this kind of growth.
View attachment 210686

Excellent Peter!How old is this young tree?
Is it P. pinea, too?

Wow I mystified you, checked the notes and the seeds were put in the ground in 2015, so it's 3 years young only. P. pinea or halepensis, not sure, the seeds were brought from Greece by my wife.

 

[petegreg]

Very interesting to see that halapensis and pinea look super similar to taeda in those close ups. All are very warm weather pines if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps ancient relatives.

I'm worried my p. taeda won't harden off in time for winter here. My growing season is much shorter and some young needles have yet to develop and harden. The top of my largest tree has been sagging since the nights got cooler haha. I wear my zonal denial like a badge

I keep mine in a cold room with subtropicals in winter 2-8 degrees centigrade.

 

[River's Edge]

One of the great features of growing young stock is the ability to test various pruning, decandling, needle reduction techniques on parts of the tree not required for future design. This adds considerable opportunity to hasten the learning curve without adversely affecting progress on the actual design.

Growth examples. End of September, flush #3 for JBP and flush #2 for JRP . Both examples of five year old from seed. The JBP has the white top candles.

 

[River's Edge]

Growth examples. End of September, flush #3 for JBP and flush #2 for JRP . Both examples of five year old from seed. The JBP has the white top candles. View attachment 211843View attachment 211844

This is an example of a young pine that has sufficient lower branching at the end of year five . Judicial pruning slowed the overall trunk growth but created branch options for the future. The trunk base is now 1 3/4 inches in diameter above the flare. Using a sacrifice leader for two more years should reach the 3 plus inch base desired. It could be thicker now if less root work was done and the pruning had not been done. However the structure for good nebari is now set, some taper is developing and their is an increase in design options for the tree. A good trade in my opinion. It is time to select a new sacrifice leader for change of direction, build more taper and girth on the trunk. The old sacrifice leader will be removed in June. The new leader wired in place now! With some side shots above the design area pruned lightly now as well. Another approach is to reduce the old sacrifice branch in stages while the new one gains strength.