Multi-Color Satsuki Azalea Tips/care/info

[Harunobu]

Hmm, these were never perfect white, right? And they still have white centers now? There is this behavior where an azalea can develop white centers in all flowers. And it is not a genetic mutation. I don't owe a Gyoten, but it may be that what you see now is just one outcome for the pale flower genetics. So all your flowers now look more pink with white centers rather than a broken white because of environmental factors. I guess 1993 is a long enough time ago that they could all have genetically mutated. But they gradually would have moved to less and less whites. I would also ID your 1993 as 'Kaho' rather than Gyoten. Maybe you remember when it changed colour? Was it just from one year to the other and suddenly all the whites were gone? (Gyoten is the pink mutation of Kaho).

You wouldn't normally graft an azalea. Especially not with a graft from a different cultivar.

I would ignore this flower 'issue' unless someone who knows more about Kaho/Gyoten and their behavior in terms of colour intensity variations has some specific advice.
You have had this tree for a long time. You probably know best what to do with it in terms of design. And if your design requires you to prune back, maybe that will answer the flower question when a white flower appears when it buds from old wood.

 

[keri-wms]

Hmm, these were never perfect white, right? And they still have white centers now? There is this behavior where an azalea can develop white centers in all flowers. And it is not a genetic mutation. I don't owe a Gyoten, but it may be that what you see now is just one outcome for the pale flower genetics. So all your flowers now look more pink with white centers rather than a broken white because of environmental factors. I guess 1993 is a long enough time ago that they could all have genetically mutated. But they gradually would have moved to less and less whites. I would also ID your 1993 as 'Kaho' rather than Gyoten. Maybe you remember when it changed colour? Was it just from one year to the other and suddenly all the whites were gone? (Gyoten is the pink mutation of Kaho).

You wouldn't normally graft an azalea. Especially not with a graft from a different cultivar.

I would ignore this flower 'issue' unless someone who knows more about Kaho/Gyoten and their behavior in terms of colour intensity variations has some specific advice.
You have had this tree for a long time. You probably know best what to do with it in terms of design. And if your design requires you to prune back, maybe that will answer the flower question when a white flower appears when it buds from old wood.

I’m pretty sure it changed after the major pruning I did about ten years ago that created that inner branch structure. If I could manage it I’d happily graft the whole tree over to a cultivar with tiny flowers but it’s a risk trying it.

Logically I suppose you’re right that I may as well follow the design rather than the flower colour, in a way there’s not much to lose if I don’t like the current colours anyway!

 

[Harunobu]

I have only ever heard of grafting the spit petal Kinsai on a Kinsai bonsai where the flowers went back to normal. I am not sure if they actually did that. I have never heard of someone grafting a small flowering variety on a larger trunk of an entirely different variety. Grafts have problems in general, don't they? Don't they just all fail at some point? Isn't that with JWP on stock? For azalea, you somehow need to match the vigor of your graft to your stock. It could be an experiment worth trying, if you have the experience grafting in general, and if you have a tree you'd be willing to sacrifice for on the altar of science (with a small s).

If your flowers have been like this for 10 years, I doubt they change back to white. Seems to support the irrevesible genetics change rather than a different response to enviromental factors. I know that many white center cultivar do not show white centers until the plant is larger. And then they suddenly all do have the white centers. And if you take a cutting, the first flowers on that cuttings lack the white centers. Until that cutting is bigger. That is not a genetic phenomenon.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Imagine you have such a streak in one of your branches. and then a new shoot grows exactly from that pink streak. Any flower on that branch, or one of it side-branches, will be all-pink. a new shoot grows exactly from that pink streak. Any flower on that branch, or one of it side-branches, will be all-pink.

Ok, thanks!
Sorry, I completely understood the genetics in your explanation but somehow got lost in the wording of your example above. My error, sorry again.

By the way, successful long term grafting is done all the time on Satsukis, especially approach grafts. Also I believe @River's Edge and others have done thread grafting successfully too.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[keri-wms]

I think I’ll cut it back and turn the trimmings into cuttings, and try a few small grafts, and report back with the results!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I think I’ll cut it back and turn the trimmings into cuttings, and try a few small grafts, and report back with the results!

Hmm... Side cleft grafts are something i haven’t heard done to Satsuki, not saying it can’t be done, but I haven’t heard of it.... maybe because the the chance of success is lower than the other type graft? Anyways, if you are trying a side cleft graft, your best chance of success would be in the springtime.
As far as grafting goes, your highest chance of success is with an approach graft, next highest is with a thread graft.
What might work the very best, if you had the patience is to take 4-6 cuttings off the most desirable areas of the donor tree now, as it’s a good time, and grow these into whips. Azalea cuttings are easy and succeed at very high levels. In a year or two you’ll be able to do an approach graft with a high degree of success. Then over the next years, you can use the remaining whips and convert a large portion of the recipient tree back to the desired characteristics.
Cheers
DSD sends

 

[leatherback]

Nice thread, this should be a resource @Harunobu !

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Branches that seem to produce all light colored flowers often will at some point start throwing the mixed patterns. Where sectors of the flower will be the dark color. This is especially true of young trees. You might identify a branch that never seems to throw the other colors, these should be marked, by a piece of colored wire, or yarn, of a bread twist tie, and then reduced or removed if you are trying to keep all the color patterns. For the light selfs, it takes more than two blooming cycles to be certain it is only throwing the light color. If you root a cutting from the branch that only throws the light form, you will have lost conformation to the cultivar name. Apparently in the nursery trade, Waka ebisu was propagated from the self, and most 'Waka ebisu' from landscape industry show only the solid dark form. But buy 'Waka ebisu' from a satsuki importer, where they were propagated for conformation in Japan, and 'Waka ebisu' will have flowers with dark sectors, dark selfs, and light coral pink selfs and occasional light coral pink sectors. So all colors from a dark salmon to pale coral pink can appear. In addition, 'Waka ebisu' is a hose in hose double. The trait is inconsistent on young plants, but should show on every flower in a mature plant. It is a 'flower in a flower' in terms of how it is double.

The dark selfs, like the full petal reversions of 'Kinsai' and 'Kegon' can take over. Once a branch begins producing only dark selfs, it will never (? I've been told never???) never show the light selfs or the multicolor patterns. Prune out branches that only throw the dark selfs, and if you root these cuttings they will never show the lighter colors, and should not be labelled with the cultivar name, because they don't conform.

Re-Reading this entry. This is great information Leo.

In the past four years I’ve worked with a number of larger satsuki, including an old very large Kinsai that has reverted to the ‘normal’ dominant variation of regular appearing flowers, or ‘Kinka’.

Just about every year this satsuki will have a small number of buds mutate to the kinsai (or fireworks shaped) form. These can be taken for cuttings, but will not, practically, carry on to dominate the tree…

So for those purchasing multi or unusual patterned satsuki or other azalea. One has to ”get smart” quickly.
it’s key to understanding the extra step in pruning and be vigilant to assure the tree doesn’t get overcome with the dominant pattern if one wishes to maintain the tree true to type.

best
DSD sends

 

[JudyB]

A most excellent thread!!!

 

[fredman]

Found some more information in this article...

https://bonsai-science.com/flower-colour/

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Very Awesome article indeed!

Haidi Jenkin, the author has got this multi layered explanation down to just as much plain language as possible… and still be able to cover major salient points.

btw @Glaucus is also referenced with the article.

Cheers
DSD sends