Mugo ROR, rock too small?

[James W.]

I started this mugo pine root-over-rock in 2018. Sorted out roots in 2020 and washed it off again last weekend to check the roots. I could have waited another year to work it again.
This time I am dissatisfied with the way it is going. Mainly, I think the rock is going to be too small for the eventual size of the tree so I am considering moving it to a larger rock. What do you all think?

 

[James W.]

The candidate rock:

 

[rollwithak]

Tree looks unhappy….. new rock is cool

 

[penumbra]

I agree with above. Tree does not look healthy.
New rock would have been a better choice but stress of moving it might be too much if it isn't a goner already.
Good luck.

 

[BrianBay9]

Generally speaking you'd like the visual mass of the tree and rock to be distinctly different. Small tree on big rock, or vice versa. Your second rock is much better.

 

[Paradox]

Honestly, it would probably be best to keep this tree with its current rock and try to grow it into a smaller tree.
The trunk diameter on it as it is now would be convincing on that rock as is IMO. You just need to work on the branching.
Trying to move that tree to a new rock will probably kill it, if it isn't dead already.
Completely washing the roots of a pine is generally not a good idea to do.

Start a new tree on the new rock and let it grow to the size you envision.
However start with a small tree and allow it to grow its roots to form around the rock rather than trying to force the tree by tying/wiring the roots to the rock.
This is how you end up with gaps between the roots and the rock

It makes for a much more convincing tree on rock if you let the tree form itself to the rock as it grows

 

[James W.]

Tree looks unhappy….. new rock is cool

One reason for the work now. I will replant it with more stuff around the roots and it should get going better. The tree is still young and I've had good response with this before so I'm not overly concerned this time. I could have just taken it up and repacked it without straightening out the roots but then the roots are still a mess.

 

[penumbra]

Honestly, it would probably be best to keep this tree with its current rock and try to grow it into a smaller tree.
The trunk diameter on it as it is now would be convincing on that rock as is IMO. You just need to work on the branching.
Trying to move that tree to a new rock will probably kill it, if it isn't dead already.
Completely washing the roots of a pine is generally not a good idea to do.

Start a new tree on the new rock and let it grow to the size you envision.
However start with a small tree and allow it to grow its roots to form around the rock rather than trying to force the tree by tying/wiring the roots to the rock.
This is how you end up with gaps between the roots and the rock

It makes for a much more convincing tree on rock if you let the tree form itself to the rock as it grows

THIS^^^

 

[James W.]

Honestly, it would probably be best to keep this tree with its current rock and try to grow it into a smaller tree.
The trunk diameter on it as it is now would be convincing on that rock as is IMO. You just need to work on the branching.
Trying to move that tree to a new rock will probably kill it, if it isn't dead already.
Completely washing the roots of a pine is generally not a good idea to do.

Start a new tree on the new rock and let it grow to the size you envision.
However start with a small tree and allow it to grow its roots to form around the rock rather than trying to force the tree by tying/wiring the roots to the rock.
This is how you end up with gaps between the roots and the rock

It makes for a much more convincing tree on rock if you let the tree form itself to the rock as it grows

I do not like the tree at it's current diameter/size. If I leave it on the rock it will be grown 2-3 times bigger trunk diameter.

 

[penumbra]

I do not like the tree at it's current diameter/size. If I leave it on the rock it will be grown 2-3 times bigger trunk diameter.

Like it or not, you have asked for advice and the advice you received is sound. What you do with it is up to you.
We have all killed trees.

 

[James W.]

I apologize if it sounds like I am not considering the advice given. I have not yet made any decision.

 

[penumbra]

I apologize if it sounds like I am not considering the advice given. I have not yet made any decision.

Not a problem. I'm just saying.................
We all have our own learning curve.

 

[James W.]

The rock looks good with snow . . .

 

[River's Edge]

Some thoughts for consideration.
Best approach from my personal perspective.
1. the first attempt did not turn out. I would replant the tree in a grow box, spreading out the nebari as best as possible at this time and work on regaining the health of the tree, it still has potential as a Bonsai.
2. Select a rock that has side perch and darker colouration and rougher contour so it becomes part of the display, not the focus or contrasting with the roots.
3. Do not plant on the top of the rock.
4. Start with younger material ( 1to 3 year old saplings ) and bind the roots tightly with lots of raffia. Before binding select a few stronger roots and position them carefully. Important to reduce the number and trimming away side roots not needed. Let grow in the ground/container for three years before disturbing. Lots of time to trim roots and expose slowly but the most important factor is that the roots form closely to the surface of the rock. Ideally in grooves or channels in the rock surface. Choose rocks that have these characteristics to begin with. Raffia is a better choice because with time it rots away, but it holds tightly for the period of time needed to form the roots to the rock, but not so long that is scars or prevents the roots from forming nicely. The extra time before disturbance also gives adequate time for the key roots to begin thickening to the point that they actually grip the rock.
5.Best material for Root over Rock has more radial roots to begin with and they have been reduced to a few stronger ones, odd number and unevenly spaced. I choose the sapling to fit the particular perch on the rock. Helps to have lots of saplings to choose from in the beginning. Best case scenario is a flat of saplings that were grown and prepared for this particular purpose. So the Root over Rock project actually begins with the way the seedlings are grown for the first couple of years and then matching the sapling to the available rock. Regardless of species the tap root has been cut and modified over the early years to make it suitable for Root over Rock.
Just additional observations for consideration.
Short version, I would not continue with that tree or that rock. And I prefer darker more neutral rock forms with contours and places to the side for planting rather than centred on top.

 

[James W.]

Some thoughts for consideration.
Best approach from my personal perspective.
1. the first attempt did not turn out. I would replant the tree in a grow box, spreading out the nebari as best as possible at this time and work on regaining the health of the tree, it still has potential as a Bonsai.
2. Select a rock that has side perch and darker colouration and rougher contour so it becomes part of the display, not the focus or contrasting with the roots.
3. Do not plant on the top of the rock.
4. Start with younger material ( 1to 3 year old saplings ) and bind the roots tightly with lots of raffia. Before binding select a few stronger roots and position them carefully. Important to reduce the number and trimming away side roots not needed. Let grow in the ground/container for three years before disturbing. Lots of time to trim roots and expose slowly but the most important factor is that the roots form closely to the surface of the rock. Ideally in grooves or channels in the rock surface. Choose rocks that have these characteristics to begin with. Raffia is a better choice because with time it rots away, but it holds tightly for the period of time needed to form the roots to the rock, but not so long that is scars or prevents the roots from forming nicely. The extra time before disturbance also gives adequate time for the key roots to begin thickening to the point that they actually grip the rock.
5.Best material for Root over Rock has more radial roots to begin with and they have been reduced to a few stronger ones, odd number and unevenly spaced. I choose the sapling to fit the particular perch on the rock. Helps to have lots of saplings to choose from in the beginning. Best case scenario is a flat of saplings that were grown and prepared for this particular purpose. So the Root over Rock project actually begins with the way the seedlings are grown for the first couple of years and then matching the sapling to the available rock. Regardless of species the tap root has been cut and modified over the early years to make it suitable for Root over Rock.
Just additional observations for consideration.
Short version, I would not continue with that tree or that rock. And I prefer darker more neutral rock forms with contours and places to the side for planting rather than centred on top.

Thank you. I started this one 4 years ago with a very small seedling. I have learned a little bit since then. Apparently a lot of what I think I know doesn't make sense until I see how it fails. I have several of those 1st attempts that look better and some that look worse than this one.

One thing you are saying that does not get mentioned much is the importance of spending a couple of years prepping the plant material. I have discovered that a tree with a tap root is a mess to try to sort out later. One will have to remove the that big fat root at some point and then it will leave a gap that has to be dealt with. Starting from cuttings is easier than seedlings. I am looking forward to trying some crabapples from layers.

And the conundrum of selecting a rock . . .
Too small and it gets lost, too big and you can't carry it
Too plain and it is boring, too exciting and it either distracts from the tree or all the pretty gets covered up. Would a tree designed to show off a spectacular rock be an option?
Dark colored rocks show off light colored roots, but what color will my roots be? Pine roots look pretty dark to me but what will they look like after they are exposed and grow some bark? What about juniper roots? Can I assume they will all look about the same color as the tree bark? And would just a contrasting color look OK.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's input. I cannot always see what is obvious to everyone else.

 

[River's Edge]

Thank you. I started this one 4 years ago with a very small seedling. I have learned a little bit since then. Apparently a lot of what I think I know doesn't make sense until I see how it fails. I have several of those 1st attempts that look better and some that look worse than this one.

One thing you are saying that does not get mentioned much is the importance of spending a couple of years prepping the plant material. I have discovered that a tree with a tap root is a mess to try to sort out later. One will have to remove the that big fat root at some point and then it will leave a gap that has to be dealt with. Starting from cuttings is easier than seedlings. I am looking forward to trying some crabapples from layers.

And the conundrum of selecting a rock . . .
Too small and it gets lost, too big and you can't carry it
Too plain and it is boring, too exciting and it either distracts from the tree or all the pretty gets covered up. Would a tree designed to show off a spectacular rock be an option?
Dark colored rocks show off light colored roots, but what color will my roots be? Pine roots look pretty dark to me but what will they look like after they are exposed and grow some bark? What about juniper roots? Can I assume they will all look about the same color as the tree bark? And would just a contrasting color look OK.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's input. I cannot always see what is obvious to everyone else.

The important thing is to enjoy the journey.

 

[James W.]

Some thoughts for consideration.
Best approach from my personal perspective.
1. the first attempt did not turn out. I would replant the tree in a grow box, spreading out the nebari as best as possible at this time and work on regaining the health of the tree, it still has potential as a Bonsai.
2. Select a rock that has side perch and darker colouration and rougher contour so it becomes part of the display, not the focus or contrasting with the roots.
3. Do not plant on the top of the rock.
4. Start with younger material ( 1to 3 year old saplings ) and bind the roots tightly with lots of raffia. Before binding select a few stronger roots and position them carefully. Important to reduce the number and trimming away side roots not needed. Let grow in the ground/container for three years before disturbing. Lots of time to trim roots and expose slowly but the most important factor is that the roots form closely to the surface of the rock. Ideally in grooves or channels in the rock surface. Choose rocks that have these characteristics to begin with. Raffia is a better choice because with time it rots away, but it holds tightly for the period of time needed to form the roots to the rock, but not so long that is scars or prevents the roots from forming nicely. The extra time before disturbance also gives adequate time for the key roots to begin thickening to the point that they actually grip the rock.
5.Best material for Root over Rock has more radial roots to begin with and they have been reduced to a few stronger ones, odd number and unevenly spaced. I choose the sapling to fit the particular perch on the rock. Helps to have lots of saplings to choose from in the beginning. Best case scenario is a flat of saplings that were grown and prepared for this particular purpose. So the Root over Rock project actually begins with the way the seedlings are grown for the first couple of years and then matching the sapling to the available rock. Regardless of species the tap root has been cut and modified over the early years to make it suitable for Root over Rock.
Just additional observations for consideration.
Short version, I would not continue with that tree or that rock. And I prefer darker more neutral rock forms with contours and places to the side for planting rather than centred on top.

This is the plan I followed. The tree is starting to look a little happier now.