Muck, the Hagedorn way

[RJG2]

Figured I'd share my experience here, with a couple lessons learned. Maybe others can chime in.

I think I heard about this method here somewhere, and the reference is a single comment on one of Michael Hagedorn's blog posts here:

Shore Pine…on a Metal Post…

For a few years I didn’t know what to do with this tree. I’d collected it with Anton Nijhuis on Vancouver Island, Canada, and remembered all too well the long, thick, stick-like root th…

crataegus.com

The recipe is basically 1/3 akadama dust and fines, 1/3 long fiber sphagnum moss, 1/3 cornstarch "jelly".

The details are in making the jelly.

I started with cornstarch and cold water mixed 1:1 until dissolved.

Next is to cook it in the microwave until it turns to a jelly. My suggestion here is to cook in increments. I tried 3 minutes and it was a little too solid - hard to mix into the muck. After lots of mixing and squishing, I still had some decent sized chunks of jelly in the mix.

Lessons learned for next time:
* I might try a bit more water in the mix
* Cook 1 minute, then in 30 second increments until the consistency is perfect

Result:

 

[RJG2]

Mixing...



Mixed...

 

[Michael P]

Thank you! I've been searching for a new muck recipe and will definitely try this. I don't use akadama, so will substitute another inorganic soil ingredient.

 

[nuttiest]

Whaaaat is this used for?
it seems I could use some cuban bread with granite pressed into it just the same, is this how you get moss to grow?

 

[RJG2]

Whaaaat is this used for?
it seems I could use some cuban bread with granite pressed into it just the same, is this how you get moss to grow?

Read the comments of the Michael Hagedorn blog post I linked. It's his recipe for muck. AKA the stuff you use for rock plantings and building walls for slab plantings.

 

[nuttiest]

Read the comments of the Michael Hagedorn blog post I linked. It's his recipe for muck. AKA the stuff you use for rock plantings and building walls for slab plantings.

Whaaaat! All those problem-rooted trees of mine can just be hanging baskets with a muck pot? I wonder what types this will work on, like juniper?

 

[Mats Hagström]

Mixing...

View attachment 484714

Mixed...

View attachment 484715

From my days in the kitchen I can add that cornstarch should be whipped or beaten while being brought to a boil. This is how

Thank you! I've been searching for a new muck recipe and will definitely try this. I don't use akadama, so will substitute another inorganic soil ingredient.

From my restaurant days I can share a bit about cooking corn starch. It should be beaten, whipped or stirred during the hearing process. I would even go so far as suggesting mixing all ingredients first then slowly bringing to a boil while constantly stirring. The cornstarch will seperate and sink in water while cold. It needs to be kept in suspension though physical motion until it thickens.

Good luck,

 

[rockm]

or just buy a 10 lb bucket of the stuff...and skip assembling the supplies and guesswork.

And as for muck as a substitute for soil, let it dry out once and it becomes hydrophobic...Muck planting like Hagedorns that have air all around them need constant care to keep them from drying out.

 

[Ruddigger]

or just buy a 10 lb bucket of the stuff...and skip assembling the supplies and guesswork.

And as for muck as a substitute for soil, let it dry out once and it becomes hydrophobic...Muck planting like Hagedorns that have air all around them need constant care to keep them from drying out.

That bucket of muck is 19.99 and 25 bucks shipping. No thanks. I tried the hagedorn method just now, using 1 cup water and 1 cup corn starch. Microwaved 1 minute, then stirred and mixed into the other ingredients. Seemed to work okay, we’ll see how well it holds up.

 

[RJG2]

That bucket of muck is 19.99 and 25 bucks shipping. No thanks. I tried the hagedorn method just now, using 1 cup water and 1 cup corn starch. Microwaved 1 minute, then stirred and mixed into the other ingredients. Seemed to work okay, we’ll see how well it holds up.

View attachment 504141
View attachment 504142

How gelatinous was the cornstarch? 1 minute seems low, but I definitely overdid mine - still holding strong though.

Agree with you though, I'd rather make it as I need it with stuff that would otherwise go to waste (the akadama dust and fines at least).

 

[Ruddigger]

How gelatinous was the cornstarch? 1 minute seems low, but I definitely overdid mine - still holding strong though.

It was a little watery at first, but after stirring it all together it firmed up. I did another 30 seconds and it got unusable. I had to add more water to be able to mix it.

I did one cup water and one cup corn starch. The second batch I didnt do the extra 30 seconds.

 

[erich_raudebaugh]

So, I've made this with Michael, both at his seasonals and also helping plant some of the strange plantings featured in his blog. It does work best to cook the cornstarch over the stove and stir constantly, exactly as drcuisine mentions, and not microwaved. I've experimented on my own with muck for Ishizuki, and adding some keto to the mix can help. I just dig around in the garden for decomposed black soil (traditionally in Japan they use black pond muck), but peat will work too, although it can be hydrophobic. The nice thing about Michael's recipe is that moss will colonize the planting very quickly, after which it isn't hydrophobic. Another thing I've noticed is that you can vary the ratio of ingredients. Since I don't always have lots of akadama dust on hand, garden clay that's not too hard will also work.

As you stir the cornstarch, it's easy to add more or more water to get a gelatinous mixture, but you don't want it too solid or rubbery or it won't combine with the other ingredients well.

 

[RJG2]

So, I've made this with Michael, both at his seasonals and also helping plant some of the strange plantings featured in his blog. It does work best to cook the cornstarch over the stove and stir constantly, exactly as drcuisine mentions, and not microwaved. I've experimented on my own with muck for Ishizuki, and adding some keto to the mix can help. I just dig around in the garden for decomposed black soil (traditionally in Japan they use black pond muck), but peat will work too, although it can be hydrophobic. The nice thing about Michael's recipe is that moss will colonize the planting very quickly, after which it isn't hydrophobic. Another thing I've noticed is that you can vary the ratio of ingredients. Since I don't always have lots of akadama dust on hand, garden clay that's not too hard will also work.

As you stir the cornstarch, it's easy to add more or more water to get a gelatinous mixture, but you don't want it too solid or rubbery or it won't combine with the other ingredients well.

Thanks for the insight! The only references I found were a passing comment here, and a tiny comment on Michael's blog - so not a lot to go by.

Also, not sure how I missed your post @Drcuisine, thank you as well!

 

[Shogun610]

I do not like muck-o and will be trying Hagedorn or mixing my own with keto for my plantings.. the Muck o eroded away very easily , they have big pieces of mulch in there , I do not like that muck product anymore .

 

[Michael P]

Earler in the summer I made a very small batch of Hagedorn's muck for a small shitakusa. I was not careful about proportions of any of the ingredients and used dust from one of my usual soil mixes instead of akadama dust. It has worked very well, holding up in our terrible summer when most muck is hydrophobic, cracks, and falls apart. I think the cornstarch is the key ingredient.

 

[Ruddigger]

I have now switched to simply using long fiber sphagnum mixed with potting soil. It seems to work better for me.

 

[vesper818]

Gives me flashbacks to my husband's first attempts at cornstarch gravy....

 

[Dave704]

Has anyone tried pond bottom sludge? I keep wanting to try the stuff that is cleaned out of my Koi pond. Unfortunately it is not as decomposed as it needs to be so it is not very sticky. Peat moss in a bucket of water takes a long time to get to muck.

If you need Akadama try a Pottery supply clay dust product.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I have now switched to simply using long fiber sphagnum mixed with potting soil. It seems to work better for me.

Is that without the cornstarch?

 

[Coppersdad]

In our climate anything that slows or inhibits water drainage is not a good idea. Just recently, being very unhappy with a couple of other recipes for muck that just didn't allow the water to drain fast enough, I began to experiment with Michael's cornstarch recipe. I am very pleased.
I did learn a few important tricks: (Of course, this is in my hands...)

1. 1/2 cup of cornstarch and 1/2 cup of COLD water slowly added, mixed well and microwaved on high for 11 seconds then stirred. The microwave and stir is repeated FOUR times. (The goal here is to keep the cornstarch from becoming lumpy.)
2. This one cup mixture is added to ONE cup of akadama dust and fines. Add HOT water to this mix to add moisture to the akadama. (If you were to use cold water the cornstarch would become lumpy and not spread through the mix. Believe me on this.)
3. Then add about one cup of slightly moist long fiber sphagnum moss. You'll probably need to mix it with your hands. It's OK to add a little water if your moss is too dry.
4. My mix applied like icing on a cake. BE SURE to keep the surface you are applying to well misted with cool water.
5. Of course, I did work in these small batches. On a large project, I might double the amount of ingredients. Not sure I'd want to make a huge batch at one time.