Muck question
- Thread starter Cadillactaste
- Start date
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
The increasing cost of long fiber sphagnum begs the question is their an alternative mixture for muck? A full 240 L bale is now selling for $120 here amd the small 1.3 L bricks go for $10.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I couldn't be happier with this muddy moss mucker, into year 3 now!
It CAN go upside down!
You should be able to find good mudmoss..I've seen your pics of it!
Shpag is just knitting fibers..use Ashaka (sp?) hair!
Sorce
It CAN go upside down!
You should be able to find good mudmoss..I've seen your pics of it!
Shpag is just knitting fibers..use Ashaka (sp?) hair!
Sorce
Silentrunning
Chumono
Since I have horses I have a LOT of twine from the hay bales. I cut it up and use it in the muck in place of the moss. So far it seems to work well even though I think it lacks the water retention ability of moss.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I have good New Zealand shaghnum moss...I worded it wrong. Can I use any brand of peat?
? that's pretty sweet there sorce! I can see why...
Lol Ahsoka hair...??
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
No, I answered it wrong!
But you don't need either IMO!
What planting are mucking around with?
Sorce
Leo in N E Illinois
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I don't know your recipe.
I use
clay - dug from the subsoil of my backyard, it would probably make what is known as "Chicago Common Brick" were it to be fired.
To that I add cheap, purchased from local big box store "Canadian peat moss" it is fine milled to almost a flour like product.
Then I add a fiber to hold the muck together, I use either Wisconsin long fiber sphagnum or Chilean long fiber sphagnum. I save the good, expensive, New Zealand sphagnum for the best of my Fuuran Orchids (Neofinetia).
I eyeball proportions, innoculate with dried and crumbled "crack in the sidewalk" moss. Mix and shape. I'll pat into the finished construction plugs of different mosses from around the yard. Step back and see what grows.
I use
clay - dug from the subsoil of my backyard, it would probably make what is known as "Chicago Common Brick" were it to be fired.
To that I add cheap, purchased from local big box store "Canadian peat moss" it is fine milled to almost a flour like product.
Then I add a fiber to hold the muck together, I use either Wisconsin long fiber sphagnum or Chilean long fiber sphagnum. I save the good, expensive, New Zealand sphagnum for the best of my Fuuran Orchids (Neofinetia).
I eyeball proportions, innoculate with dried and crumbled "crack in the sidewalk" moss. Mix and shape. I'll pat into the finished construction plugs of different mosses from around the yard. Step back and see what grows.
Leo in N E Illinois
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End result looks like Sorce's construction.
@Cadillactaste
Oh, I just realized that you did post your recipe. Sure, any brand, Michigan, Canadian, or for our EU members, Scottland or Scandinavian sourced peat will work. The chunky, much older in terms of age German peat should be saved for other purposes.
@Cadillactaste
Oh, I just realized that you did post your recipe. Sure, any brand, Michigan, Canadian, or for our EU members, Scottland or Scandinavian sourced peat will work. The chunky, much older in terms of age German peat should be saved for other purposes.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
Rock wool could be used as an alternative, but it will not break down ever. Good for structure, terrible for design. Keep some moss close to hide the stuff.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
I know nothing about muck for bonsai but have built my share of mud huts. I can tell you that mud with raffia mixed in will make good mud walls that last for years.
Leo in N E Illinois
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Long fiber Sphagnum moss is often harvested while alive. It's the dried and compressed to bales.
Peat moss is sphagnum moss that has died, sunk to the bottom of the bog, and decomposed, or rather because of the low mineral, oxygen poor, acidic conditions in the lower parts below the surface of the bog, peat is sphagnum moss that has begun the metamorphosis toward what would become coal in a million or more years. Peat moss is collected by strip mining, dewatered, compressed into bales. Canadian, Wisconsin, Michigan, Scandinavian peats are all pretty much the same. This peat is only centuries to maybe a thousand years away from being living sphagnum.
German peat is thousands of years older and has progressed further in the metamorphosis toward coal. It is approaching lignite and or leonardite in character, it should be used where it's higher content of humates and humic acids is needed.
Peat moss is sphagnum moss that has died, sunk to the bottom of the bog, and decomposed, or rather because of the low mineral, oxygen poor, acidic conditions in the lower parts below the surface of the bog, peat is sphagnum moss that has begun the metamorphosis toward what would become coal in a million or more years. Peat moss is collected by strip mining, dewatered, compressed into bales. Canadian, Wisconsin, Michigan, Scandinavian peats are all pretty much the same. This peat is only centuries to maybe a thousand years away from being living sphagnum.
German peat is thousands of years older and has progressed further in the metamorphosis toward coal. It is approaching lignite and or leonardite in character, it should be used where it's higher content of humates and humic acids is needed.
Clicio
Masterpiece
Thanks for the good info, Leo.
It's a pity we can find none of those peat here in the tropics, only alive or dried sphagnum moss.
WNC Bonsai
Masterpiece
After some internet searches it appears that you can use animal or human hair as the fiber binder in muck. I was also wondering how well coconut fiber would work. In addition to Bill’s reciper another popular one uses bentonite clay.
From the Bonsai Society of Brevard: Mix one part Bentonite with 5 parts Black Kow [a popular brand of composted manure], and one part sphagnum moss cut into one inch lengths (be sure to add the moss before any water is added to the mixture). Add water.
From the Bonsai Society of Brevard: Mix one part Bentonite with 5 parts Black Kow [a popular brand of composted manure], and one part sphagnum moss cut into one inch lengths (be sure to add the moss before any water is added to the mixture). Add water.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Leo in N E Illinois
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This formula will work, except bentonite, while an ideal clay, is overkill. Anyone who has clay in their soil, especially clay from the sub soil has no need to purchase bentonite. Any clay, harvested from an area that has plant life, should work. (There are esoteric clay types used for industrial purposes that are harmful to plant life). So any back yard clay would work. No back yard? No clay on your granite mountain top? Bentonite is a good clay and easy to purchase.
Manure, if it is not carefully composted, can be a problem. It will discourage moss from growing, it often contains weed seeds, and fresh manure is very high in salt. Cows, more than horses consume a lot of salt. My recommendation is to skip the manue. After moss is established, fertilize the tree with your normal bonsai fertilizer. If you intend to grow moss only or moss and ferns, do not fertilize at all.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Oh yeah I would just fill it with handfuls of mossy ground until it's fullish then tidy up the holes with good...
Multiple types....
That'll look Fab!
Dig!
Sorce
BubblePopScott
Mame
Sorry I'm new. What is the purpose of the muck? Is it a medium to grow moss ontop of or does it grow moss by itself somehow? Or some other reason. Thank yiu
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
To make a wall, like the sides of a pot, to contain the substrate in rock/slab plantings.
BubblePopScott
Mame
ah I see makes sense thanks
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Any peat can be used in muck, including coconut peat (coir) which is a far more renewable product than sphagnum peats.
Sphagnum may provide fibres to hold muck together but IMHO its main reason is to absorb moisture. When sphagnum free much dries out it is extremely difficult to rewet. Sphagnum fibres absorb water and spread it through the muck and the whole mass soon absorbs water again. Hair and raffia will provide some fibre but will they also help absorb water if the mix dries out?
Sphagnum may provide fibres to hold muck together but IMHO its main reason is to absorb moisture. When sphagnum free much dries out it is extremely difficult to rewet. Sphagnum fibres absorb water and spread it through the muck and the whole mass soon absorbs water again. Hair and raffia will provide some fibre but will they also help absorb water if the mix dries out?
