Mt Maple - Lift today or rest another year?

[Japonicus]

I have to start a thread on this separate from my Moon maple landscape lift, with the total differences between the two.
@Leo in N E Illinois You've mentioned that you do not work the roots of any trees in your collection 2 years running in a BC thread.
Should this also apply to in ground grown, vigorous growing Mountain maples? Acer palmatum palmatum.

Late last March I dug this maple and planted it back into the same spot.

I know, roots too coarse...been a landscape tree for years.


A year later...


I could do a major trunk chop instead, mid-late Summer, but was hoping to lift this today and move to a wooden grow pot
along with a major reduction being the species it is, or is that ill advised yet?
BTW I'm pretty sure this is the same tree roughly 10 years ago next to this Seigen

After losing my other maples in pots, I planted this one where it is in the neglected state it's been in since.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Generally, yes, in a pot or in the ground I usually do not work the roots in 2 consecutive years. The purpose for this is to allow the tree some time to grow and build energy. Every time you repot, or lift and prune roots, you slow down growth, because the tree needs to reestablish roots before significant growth can begin again.

If there was something wrong with the potting mix, or the pot I would repot to cure that.

If I was trying to slow down a very fast growing tree I might repot every year.

Most years I am trying to get growth, so I don't repot 9or lift and prune roots) unless I need to for some other reason.

If your long term plan has you needing this tree in a pot so it is ready to work on while in a pot next year, then by all means, dig it up and put it in a pot. But if your number one goal is more growth, then don't dig it up.

So the correct answer is, ''it depends on what you want to do?"

 

[Japonicus]

Generally, yes, in a pot or in the ground I usually do not work the roots in 2 consecutive years. The purpose for this is to allow the tree some time to grow and build energy. Every time you repot, or lift and prune roots, you slow down growth, because the tree needs to reestablish roots before significant growth can begin again.

If there was something wrong with the potting mix, or the pot I would repot to cure that.

If I was trying to slow down a very fast growing tree I might repot every year.

Most years I am trying to get growth, so I don't repot 9or lift and prune roots) unless I need to for some other reason.

If your long term plan has you needing this tree in a pot so it is ready to work on while in a pot next year, then by all means, dig it up and put it in a pot. But if your number one goal is more growth, then don't dig it up.

So the correct answer is, ''it depends on what you want to do?"

I don't need more growth with this one before I begin building lower branches.
Would it be prudent to leave or remove a good amount of upper branching.
I would leave more to get good nutrients to the roots
but I would remove a good bit to lessen the load on the newly developing root system.
I get this part confused. I'm sorry. I know when a layer is severed we reduce the load
by pruning a good deal of leaves, small branches and pot it up, but this time of year
for a dig, I'm misunderstanding what's best. Collected conifers we leave the foliage.
repotting Mt Maples and Tridents we can do major reductions both above and below soil
(again...repotting that is) so where does this leave collecting versus hard pruning???

Ahhh, I need to work the roots very hard, but since I dug it up last year, I will proceed
in a more gentle approach this year in that respect, but probably bare rooting it nonetheless.
In the meantime...I will lift and pot, but will await your reply before I prune hard.

It's an exceedingly UGLY trunk where the branches/trunk divide on the current front side.
The 2nd picture of it above on the grass shows the nice back side that should become the front.
See...being a neglected landscape tree, since I gave up on maples years ago, leaves were trapped
in the crotch atop the trunk and rotted the poor thing
I was going to waste a couple side trunks to layer a more central one, but @MACH5 sees potential as
the trunks are, as one tree basically. Anyway, it has to start somewhere. Then we can make corrections
and remove any trunks that work against the aesthetics.
Thanks for the reply. Wish me better luck with maples in pots this go round please...

 

[Japonicus]

If there was something wrong with the potting mix, or the pot I would repot to cure that.

If I was trying to slow down a very fast growing tree I might repot every year.

The soil indeed is an issue yes...so lift I will.

I never though of repotting an overly vigorous tree annually to slow it down.
I have 2 Sargents junipers same everything bought same day, sized pot...
one is just way yonder too doggone prolific, whether in ground or potted up either way.
The other one...totally different in that respect. I will take this to heart and perhaps repot
the overly vigorous one more often, but not annually (I'm not that brave) and see how it responds.
Again, thanks for that!

 

[Japonicus]

So I have the opportunity to get some feedback on how much root work should commence.
As fate would have it, the wooden container I bought did not fit the feet, and I was not comfortable
pushing further, given I had dug this up a year ago...I had to stop, put it back in the ground and build
a grow box. I'm comfortable doing that. It will be potted up tomorrow.

I see a couple more I'd like to get at, and will reassess them tomorrow.
Was afraid to shorten any more to fit the barrel, because there were so many feeder roots
that would be gone to just remove 3 more inches overall diameter.
I said I'd take it a bit more gentle than otherwise, so in 2-3 years as the box rots
I will hopefully be able to be more aggressive and step down the root mass with each repotting.
Is that a fair plan, or should I do the final reduction in roots next go round?
The grow box is 2x6 material so 5.5" deep and ~20x20".
The barrel is 7" deep and 15" at top 13" wide in the bottom. Really hoped to get it in there
but this doesn't seem to be ready to fit a 13-14" pot just yet.

Yes that's the same tree in the pic from 2009. I found a shard of the old round tera cotta pot.
The nebari grew around 2 of the tie down wires, and I had to pry out a bit of window screening
from the original potting.

 

[Japonicus]

My 1st 2 man tree!!
I had no idea this was going to get so heavy. The tree probably weighs 7-8# without soil.

Now...

...how much and when to prune???

Had to build the grow box and wrestle the tree yesterday, but got it done on schedule.

Worked on the feet a bit more, mostly downwards large roots without too many feeders
Still no way this was going to fit the 15 x 7" barrel which was a little deep anyway.

The 2x6 frame was the perfect depth for this. Probably took at least 12 gallons of bonsai soil.
I used mostly a 1:1 ratio of the following
Pumice pH 8.63,
Monto Clay (1/4" Turface) pH 5.6
Lava Rock pH 9.22
Bark-(1/2 Douglas fir Bark pH 5.2 1/2 Pine bark fines1/4"pH 4.3)
then used an organic potting mix with worm castings etc. at a 1:6 ratio (mix : bonsai soil)
and DE at a much lesser ratio yet.

I added the DE to help with Mike Frarys claims that it helps ward off Springtails which were horrid here last year
though I'm certain the amount I used is negligible in his books.

Did not spray the roots off, but bare rooted in my books compared to the 60+ pound tree reduced to 7-8 pounds.

Now need some guidance on pruning and recovery...

 

[Japonicus]

Thinking ahead into the wood rots game I added a couple 1x2 oak slats on edge
underneath the plywood bottom.
I could have used 3/4" plywood, but the weight was more than I cared to deal with
and drilling drainage holes in the thinner plywood I used was a breeze compared to 3/4".

I used four 1-1/4" threaded PVC caps screwed to the corners, threads down.
Then used four 1-1/2 reducing bushings, threaded x slip
so the corners can be slightly adjusted for uneven surfaces.
Not that I'm going to be moving this around a lot...

 

[theta]

Nice job, I'd prune it now. Cut all the branches way down low.

 

[theta]

If the buds haven't opened yet, there's still all that stored energy in there that hasn't been used.

Pruning now is the best time, because none of the energy will be wasted on parts that will be pruned off. So, cut it down low now and all that energy gets directed right to the buds that are left down low, or will create new buds right below where you cut and will go straight into extending the new shoots.

 

[Japonicus]

If the buds haven't opened yet, there's still all that stored energy in there that hasn't been used.

Pruning now is the best time, because none of the energy will be wasted on parts that will be pruned off. So, cut it down low now and all that energy gets directed right to the buds that are left down low, or will create new buds right below where you cut and will go straight into extending the new shoots.

Thanks theta!
I like the idea, but really uneasy with a very low down prune, given my track record with maples in pots.
Collected, and working the roots 2 years running (in a row), bare rooted now too...
I'm afraid to push the limits further than a 50% branch reduction on such unfed material.

Here's why...I recently layered a Wilsons Pink + pruned with bud swell, like you said here, just not extreme, a simple reduction.
Then I hear replies saying I should not have pruned, because the extra foliage will speed root development.
I was afraid without roots to support the foliage, the layer would fail being over burdened. Just logical, to ME, not experience.
I worked the roots a year ago on this Mt Maple, and I just did again, + 100% soil change. I want to do the right, best thing
for the health of the tree and aid it best I can for recovery.

With your angle on this, (and my thinking initially before the said layer attempt)
the roots are reduced, so the foliage should also be reduced.

I am going with a happy medium in steps, unless @MACH5 or @Leo in N E Illinois feels it's best to get a complete reduction
in place now with a tree that was not fed hardly at all being a landscape tree, not in the lawn.
The full reduction would speed the transition of the pruned area to blend sooner (if it survives me)
rather than another major branch reduction 3 years from now.
[ in other words, I mean if my target is to reduce the current multiple trunks to 16" I plan to reduce 1st, now, to 24".
The tree is 5' tall ATM]
It's very difficult for me to proceed without experience, and my searches for a collected Japanese Maple potting up
just isn't getting the results to guide me on this. That is why I am shooting for a happy medium
to reduce branching/foliage by as much as I've reduced the roots for equilibrium.

Is it a standard to automatically prune low, to an existing viable branch both for JM that have been in training
when potting them, (if reduction is a goal still training) as well as with a collected tree?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I only have ''some'' experience with maples. In the last 30 years I've had 10 or so, but have not kept any for much more than 5 or 10 years. Usually one disaster or another killed my maples. I usually knew why, I could assign cause, so from each I learned something.

You repotted two consecutive years and did not do any fertilizing while it was in the ground. For this reason, I would remove half or a little less. By half I mean I would cut this 5 foot tall tree down to maybe 2 to 3 feet, mostly removing the thin, long straight branches. .

If the tree was in better shape, I would have cut radically. If it was a Amur maple, I would have reduced the whole thing to less than one foot tall and down to only 3 main sub-trunks. But the tree is a mountain maple, and probably not as vigorous as it should have been rolling into this exercise.

So take it from 5 feet tall down to 2 ro 3 feet tall.

Or, if you know which sub trunks you want to keep, and which you want to get rid of, remove one or two of those you want to eliminate, leave everything else alone.

It is up to you.

Nice grow box by the way, and your potting mix will work.

Leo

 

[Japonicus]

I only have ''some'' experience with maples. In the last 30 years I've had 10 or so, but have not kept any for much more than 5 or 10 years. Usually one disaster or another killed my maples. I usually knew why, I could assign cause, so from each I learned something.

You repotted two consecutive years and did not do any fertilizing while it was in the ground. For this reason, I would remove half or a little less. By half I mean I would cut this 5 foot tall tree down to maybe 2 to 3 feet, mostly removing the thin, long straight branches. .

If the tree was in better shape, I would have cut radically. If it was a Amur maple, I would have reduced the whole thing to less than one foot tall and down to only 3 main sub-trunks. But the tree is a mountain maple, and probably not as vigorous as it should have been rolling into this exercise.

So take it from 5 feet tall down to 2 ro 3 feet tall.

Or, if you know which sub trunks you want to keep, and which you want to get rid of, remove one or two of those you want to eliminate, leave everything else alone.

It is up to you.

Nice grow box by the way, and your potting mix will work.

Leo

Thanks so much Leo. I did just as you said following my gut instinct before dark last night
and sealed the wounds. More than half the existing buds but not quite half the height.
Had this been a trident or had it been treated as though it would one day be a bonsai,
sure, I would’ve reduced to the target trunk height at this time.

The soil is just pumice lava 1/4” Turface and a touch of DE and quality organic potting mix.
I covered the nebari well.

I had to reduce some so I could shuffle this under cover no matter what.
Thought about the crossing sub trunks and others that will need to go
while at it, but per my input here and echoing yours, further styling will come later.
Thanks again for your ideas and input. I will let it rest now, and I guess begin feeding
lightly after frost increasing steadily until when? Then 0:10:10 in August and September.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would recommend no fertilizer until after it starts growing. Year round I use a high nitrogen, low phosphorous fertilizer. I change the concentration based on season and how the tree is growing. I do not change the formulation.
12-1-4 is a ''balanced to the needs of the tree'' fertilizer. 10-10-10 is NOT BALANCED.

A high phosphorous fertilizer will cause more damage than good. The 0-10-10 formulation is BAD, JUNK SCIENCE. It is a left over from 1880's smog ridden, acid rain having London gardening practices. In the 1880's the Kew Gardens did fertilizer study for outdoor vegetable plots. Vegetables, not trees. The ACID RAIN from the coal heated homes in 1880's London provided all the nitrogen needed. So in 1880's London you used a high phosphorous fertilizer because people heating their homes with coal were supplying all the nitrogen needed through the smog and acid rain. THe vegetables still needed 12-1-4 to thrive, the rain pollution was providing the N.

 

[Japonicus]

I would recommend no fertilizer until after it starts growing. Year round I use a high nitrogen, low phosphorous fertilizer. I change the concentration based on season and how the tree is growing. I do not change the formulation.
12-1-4 is a ''balanced to the needs of the tree'' fertilizer. 10-10-10 is NOT BALANCED.

A high phosphorous fertilizer will cause more damage than good. The 0-10-10 formulation is BAD, JUNK SCIENCE. It is a left over from 1880's smog ridden, acid rain having London gardening practices. In the 1880's the Kew Gardens did fertilizer study for outdoor vegetable plots. Vegetables, not trees. The ACID RAIN from the coal heated homes in 1880's London provided all the nitrogen needed. So in 1880's London you used a high phosphorous fertilizer because people heating their homes with coal were supplying all the nitrogen needed through the smog and acid rain. THe vegetables still needed 12-1-4 to thrive, the rain pollution was providing the N.

Awesome, glad you swung by, this is what I rotate on all my conifers...except I usually omit the 2 acidic ferts for shimpaku...
often supplementing in ProTekt 0-0-3 with silicone to aid with transpiration, and Superthrive,(and K-L-N for newly potted)...

Miracle Gro or (generic 24-8-16)

MirAcid 30-10-10

Alaska fish fertilizer 5-1-1
Fish and Seaweed 2-3-1

Dyna Gro 7-9-5

Espoma Holly-Tone acidic 4-3-4
Plant Tone 5-3-3

Not in that order as I switch between using lower N during the hottest months
and every other week I use the higher N weather permitting.
I guess I need to rethink offering trees at all stages the same food though I really have nothing near finished
so I hope I'm not working against myself here too bad. Thing here to consider as well, this rotation applies
to my conifers and this is my 1st year getting back into maples.

When you say 12-1-4 is balanced to the needs of the tree, is that maples in general in an acid rain environment?
It looks like of all the foods I listed, the generic Miracle Gro is the closest is analysis doubling the concentration that I use.
Since Mothers Day is deemed our last frost chance, and the latest pre-emergence should be applied to the lawn
I figure the tree will be in green leaf and growing by then, why I suggested I'd begin feeding after frosts. Is that a fair assumption?

 

[Japonicus]

I think in 5 years this could be a good tree for me.
It is getting my teeth cut learning what to do and give pause before I lift my Autumn Moon, now 10 years in the lawn.

If I revert back to the original front, any chance I should carve and use the rotted trunk bases for interest?
When I pruned back yesterday to good viable branches on almost all points, this still left the naturally wild
characteristics of the original front obvious including higher pruning towards the back, so when viewed from the sides
it currently, visually, wants the old front to remain the front. Of course that can change, but perhaps the nebari looks better
the old way, as in the pics below. I'm all for grafting roots one day if this pot would allow. I don't see why not.

 

[Japonicus]

Coming along in recovery mode. Has leafed out a while now and never protected from frosts. Mild Spring really.
On the North side of the house, vertical picture, East is just to the left of the pic, so only morning Sun.
I will probably cut much lower next year. This year the foliage tends to the roots.
Will probably remove a couple of sub trunks next year while I'm at it, then the following year, into a 2x4 grow box
rather than the 2x6 unless the bottom rots out this year.

Once in a 2x4 box or something smaller, it will be moved to the East side of the porch
on the South side of the house, getting a lot better Sun exposure and late afternoon shade.

 

[BobbyLane]

I think in 5 years this could be a good tree for me.
It is getting my teeth cut learning what to do and give pause before I lift my Autumn Moon, now 10 years in the lawn.

If I revert back to the original front, any chance I should carve and use the rotted trunk bases for interest?
When I pruned back yesterday to good viable branches on almost all points, this still left the naturally wild
characteristics of the original front obvious including higher pruning towards the back, so when viewed from the sides
it currently, visually, wants the old front to remain the front. Of course that can change, but perhaps the nebari looks better
the old way, as in the pics below. I'm all for grafting roots one day if this pot would allow. I don't see why not.

View attachment 232571 View attachment 232569 View attachment 232570 View attachment 232573 View attachment 232574

i like that front, dont see much need to carve though, could leave the wounds as are.....

you might like this for inspiration

 

[Japonicus]

i like that front, dont see much need to carve though, could leave the wounds as are.....

you might like this for inspiration

Thanks Bobby! It's nice to have two promising fronts, or I should say, 2 good sides.
Old front has better finer roots as currently pictured, now it crosses my mind this should
be turned frequently. I'm the worst for turning my trees for Sun exposure
Thanks for the video. Some similarities in trunks for sure, though mines a bit more squat
but no branch work beginning yet, by my conservative approach this year, bummer.
I liked the view of that tree in the video from below, knelt down.

 

[Nanuk]

View attachment 237917 View attachment 237918
Coming along in recovery mode. Has leafed out a while now and never protected from frosts. Mild Spring really.
On the North side of the house, vertical picture, East is just to the left of the pic, so only morning Sun.
I will probably cut much lower next year. This year the foliage tends to the roots.
Will probably remove a couple of sub trunks next year while I'm at it, then the following year, into a 2x4 grow box
rather than the 2x6 unless the bottom rots out this year.

Once in a 2x4 box or something smaller, it will be moved to the East side of the porch
on the South side of the house, getting a lot better Sun exposure and late afternoon shade.

Looks like it didn't miss a beat.
Love the pvc feet on the grow box. Good idea.

 

[Japonicus]

Looks like it didn't miss a beat.
Love the pvc feet on the grow box. Good idea.

It did not. Probably coulda done a drastic prune, but truly there weren't much BTW of viable branches
below where I did prune. That was my conservative approach, to prune back only to viable branches.

The PVC feet stems from my reefing hobby. I had 120' of 1.25 in PVC ran under the house for a satellite sump.
Lots of unions and up sizing fittings to increase flow. Just made sense to be able to have threads to level the box.