Most excellent Peter Tea blog post about summer work on Maples!

[papymandarin]

what you showed was in no way valid refutations of the specific technique discussed, several of the references actually could equally explain why it works (need for the branch support, stresses on the branches ect). i grow my trees for a bit more than 15 years, i may just had more time to try things and realize some things are not as obvious as they seem, however i agree the validity of the technique does not depend on whether one is good at bonsai or not (artistically speaking). I'm a no-one amateur not knowing anyone here and known by no one either, so it's a bit sad to make it something personal.

 

[Adair M]

man.... we're going in circles.... And then it's me. Was this technique supposed to get trunks thicker fast? Are we kidding here?

Actually, it was to get the branch thicker. Not the trunk.

Once you put a tree in a bonsai pot, it’s very difficult to get trunk thickening to occur. For that you need a lot of root growth. And in a bonsai pot, there’s not much room for that.


Earlier, I posted a recap of the method: 1) develop trunk and nebari. 2) develop primary branches; 3) develop secondary branches; 4) begin ramification.

So, what he was trying to do was thicken a primary branch. NOT build trunk. The trunk was done.

What did not show is he will eventually chop that long branch, and let a new leader extend. And, later chop that one. And so on. Until he is happy with the caliper and taper of that branch.

THEN, he will let side (secondary) branches develop. And let them grow, and cut back, grow, and cut back... until he’s happy with them.

THEN, he might continue on in the same manner with tertiary branches!

THEN, begin ramification.

It takes a long time to build quality deciduous bonsai!

 

[Smoke]

I do not need to have a Ferrari to know how to drive or be a mechanic. And I'm not spanish.

I'm a no-one amateur not knowing anyone here and known by no one either, so it's a bit sad to make it something personal.

What is a bit sad is that in 13 pages no one has posted one picture of a tree they are working on. How can anyone argue about anything here of substance and not show that they know what they are talking about. Pull down your zippers and whip out some trees. Let your work speak for you. Credibility is developed by explaining your work and what it is that you have done to back up your statements.

I don't work on pines, don't know enough about pines to make statements I can't back up. No one here should. I don't do tropicals, I do very little with junipers, hate um... and I don't work with flowering species. You won't find me at this forum trying to give anyone information on how to take care of any of those species as bonsai.

"A man's got to know his limitations...."

 

[Gustavo Martins]

What is a bit sad is that in 13 pages no one has posted one picture of a tree they are working on. How can anyone argue about anything here of substance and not show that they know what they are talking about. Pull down your zippers and whip out some trees. Let your work speak for you. Credibility is developed by explaining your work and what it is that you have done to back up your statements.

I don't work on pines, don't know enough about pines to make statements I can't back up. No one here should. I don't do tropicals, I do very little with junipers, hate um... and I don't work with flowering species. You won't find me at this forum trying to give anyone information on how to take care of any of those species as bonsai.

"A man's got to know his limitations...."

Ok this is what I got.
Cut in March this here, about 1cm at cut site

Cut in March 2017. Pruned side shoots once. About same size at cut site. You can see both side by side. Despite its length, same thickness

 

[Lorax7]

What is a bit sad is that in 13 pages no one has posted one picture of a tree they are working on.

Look again. Page 4, post #63.

 

[papymandarin]

tried to find some pcitures to illustrate on one of my tree in building (difficult because i do pictures to follow my trees not to make "demonstrations").
The part to look at is the ascending part of the lower branch. Each picture taken one year apart, between first and second the ascending part of the branch grew freely (cut back at the end of growing season), between the second and third i used the single leader technique (cut back in august not at the end of the season). Tree is a senkaki japanese maple.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

better pictures

Both side by side. Left: chopped down this year and left to grow untouched. Right: chopped down last year and side shoots trimmed. See how they differ in size and width and age right?

Size at chop site of left

And the one in the right

Both techniques side by side. You still think cutting side branches is quicker ??? It took 3 months for the untouched to get as thick as the other one which took 1 year and 3 months.

 

[papymandarin]

still the technique is about thickening a specific part of an otherwise "controlled" tree, not whole trunk growing

 

[Anthony]

Hmm Gustavo,

imagine what you could do with ground growing.
Those containers are holding you back.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Gustavo Martins]

still the technique is about thickening a specific part of an otherwise "controlled" tree, not whole trunk growing

There's always an excuse right? Ah ah ah.
Adair also says that branches n trunks differ. What he does not know is that they are both the same organ. they are the same structurally, anatomically, physiologically and functionally...

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Hmm Gustavo,

imagine what you could do with ground growing.
Those containers are holding you back.
Good Day
Anthony

That's not an option, unfortunately.

 

[Adair M]

There's always an excuse right? Ah ah ah.
Adair also says that branches n trunks differ. What he does not know is that they are both the same organ. they are the same structurally, anatomically, physiologically and functionally...

Their location and height make a huge difference in their rate of growth, which can depend on whether the tree is apex dominant or basal dominant.

Azalea, for example, is basal dominant. It prefers to grow “out” rather than “up”. The lower portions of the “tree” are stronger than the upper portions. Procumbens juniper is like that, too.

Other trees, including most (but not all) pines prefer to grow tall. Branches near the top will grow much faster than those lower down. A sacrifice branch on a pine that extends horizontally and does not become the highest part of the tree will not produce much thickening. If that same branch is staked up to where it is now the tallest part of the tree, it will become dominant, and it will thicken much faster.

 

[Anthony]

Gustavo,

I return to the past. This tree got me in trouble with Al, when
I first got here.Bought in England as a pencil thin whip.
In a large 39 cm round x 39 cm pot, in around 6 months became a
8 cm trunk. Trident Maple.

We didn't know that our climate is an optimum for growth for
trees, as long as they had their winter.
We use this situation to grow large trunked Celtis l. [ 8 cm ]
in under a year.

Try it an let me know how it goes.
Good Day
Anthony

*good news - one of the guys explained how to germinate we had old
seed, got 3 to grow. Might try again ??????????



died after 16 years from imports 93 or 96
Two trips made to the UK to purchase stock
Possibly fridge death -------- sacrifice to house building

 

[Anthony]

Hee hee Sifu,

testing your thoughts on J.B.pine.
Will let you know if we hit the 3 inch trunk by December.
Following Bonsai Today 12 and with clay pot, gravel and compost.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Sure, as we say in English, those who can't, teach lol

Hey! My wife is a High School teacher and can do a lot of things, very well.

 

[bonsaichile]

Hey! My wife is a High School teacher and can do a lot of things, very well.

I teach too. I meant it in the way, those who cantdo, usually pontificate a lot

 

[MichaelS]

. A sacrifice branch on a pine that extends horizontally and does not become the highest part of the tree will not produce much thickening..

Actually not true. I've grown many pines in the ground and left the horizontal branches down low. They cause MUCH thickening. Once again, it's a question of the mass of that branch compared to the rest of the tree.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

I teach too. I meant it in the way, those who cantdo, usually pontificate a lot

You are right, at times, there is a lot of pontificating.

 

[papymandarin]

Gustavo , you are right they are the same organs, that does not mean they will grow the same way all the time, as Adair said, their position is critical, a tree doesn't care for your building plans, it will always send more strenght/growth on top and most external shoots (unless you have a basally dominant species/variety). Obviously, those part don't need any help to thicken, we actually try most of the time to restrain them and prevent the thickening of those area that are always growing more than you wish past a given stage of developpement. So when you realize that a part of you tree should be thicker, it's likely to be a lower branch or a more internal part of the tree (typically a branch lacking thickness on its first third of lenght) and that where you need your sacrifice shoot to be so that it ony thicken that area, Those shoots placed there however, even if left free are unlikely to grow a lot (and when you need to thicken an already existing part of a branch, you need a lot of growth), because that's not where the tree wants to grow. After a trimming as soon as growth resumes on the naturally dominant parts of the tree, your internal/low shoot most likely will slow and soon stop growing, that's where the technique is useful, to artificially push this shoot to become a dominant one, only after it has, will it really start to push a lot of growth and thickening. If left to its own you can wait a long time before its "spontaneous" growth will make it become dominant and really increase its growth/thickening rate. So yes they are basically the same organs, but if you think they will just grow in a similar way, YOU are mistaken, bonsai is about going against the natural growth tendencies of trees, energy balance/manipulation. Of course on the tree you showed you dont care, ALL the growth you have now is basically sacrifice to make the trunk grow, when your trees will have passed this stage of trunk growing, you will realize that having strong growth where you need it is not a so obvious matter.