M. Frary's 6 year scots pine contest thread.

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I did some stem cuttings too, at around the same 2.5 month age. Scots took it better than jbp. The jbp got infection issues and died, and the scots didn't.
I can't wait to see how the roots look after a year, being sown in a 2cm deep container. If they behave anything like other pines, I'm in for a treat.

 

[my nellie]

Sorry for the confusion @my nellie , these are not my JBP but Scots pine I germinated pretty much at the same time. I really should start a new thread for them though so as not to bog down @M. Frary 's Scots pine thread too much. I just posted here as this is where I put in the original pic of my seedlings ... I'll get onto it soon ... my apologies!

No need to apologize
But I really would like to know are you participating in the 6 year contest?

 

[Ryceman3]

No need to apologize
But I really would like to know are you participating in the 6 year contest?

The JBP 6 year contest you mean? If so then yes, link below :
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ryceman3s-6yr-jbp-contest-entry.34349/
This Scots pine ‘contest’? I’ve got Scots pine seedlings so yep I’m in for that also!

 

[my nellie]

Thank you for your reply @Ryceman3
Good luck with your seedlings!

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I second that! I found a sweet spot in the woods, and they come right out. No taproot whatsoever. But they do tend to have large pancakes full of surface roots.


On a side note, a useful addition from observing my backyard: I found decapitation to work as well for scots pines. Side branching achieved in the seedling stage, year one. Seedling cutting sounds fun, but it's just a mayor setback in time to get them to root (3 months until active growth slowly returns). With decapitation, yes, there is more rootwork to be done later, but lower branching is achieved easily and doesn't take that long to recover (around 1-2 months without loss of vigor). And on the plus side, they don't die like all my seedling cuttings did. I found something that works for me. Again, I'm not saying anyone should, but I want people to know that they could if they wanted to.

Can you explain what you mean by decapitating? Like pinch out the terminal growth with tweezers or something? how much do you actually remove?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I pinch off the terminal growth halfway through the growing season with my fingernails. I tried tweezers but that just doesn't work, since you'll be pulling it from the soil. Scissors would be better.
I remove about.. well usually I leave 2-3cm of stem, so that's around 5-10 juvenile needles. The terminal growth that's removed does root, so it's a 2 for the price of 1 technique if conditions are right.

Two things can happen when they're snipped: a new apex takes over, or two or three branches appear that grow somewhat equally balanced. My italian scots tend to do 50/50, the local scots around the same as my jbp and jrp which are more eager to branch out, closer to 30/70 apex/branching. This technique doesn't seem to work with dormant pines.
After the first year, they form an apical bud that can be decandled in spring or early summer. I haven't tried anything in that stage with scots. With 1 year old JRP, decandling seems to have the same effect: induction of lower budding and branching. But these buds tend to be a bit higher up the trunk compared to decapitation, where they sprout at the lowest set of needles sometimes.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I pinch off the terminal growth halfway through the growing season with my fingernails. I tried tweezers but that just doesn't work, since you'll be pulling it from the soil. Scissors would be better.
I remove about.. well usually I leave 2-3cm of stem, so that's around 5-10 juvenile needles. The terminal growth that's removed does root, so it's a 2 for the price of 1 technique if conditions are right.

Two things can happen when they're snipped: a new apex takes over, or two or three branches appear that grow somewhat equally balanced. My italian scots tend to do 50/50, the local scots around the same as my jbp and jrp which are more eager to branch out, closer to 30/70 apex/branching. This technique doesn't seem to work with dormant pines.
After the first year, they form an apical bud that can be decandled in spring or early summer. I haven't tried anything in that stage with scots. With 1 year old JRP, decandling seems to have the same effect: induction of lower budding and branching. But these buds tend to be a bit higher up the trunk compared to decapitation, where they sprout at the lowest set of needles sometimes.

Really interesting, thanks for sharing. I’m planning on starting some scots from seed this spring. This thread will be a lot of help. I’m trying to figure out where to buy seeds from. I had heard that scots originated from certain areas tend to have shorter needles, like Italian or Spanish scots pines maybe?

Like on sheffield’s Website I see they have scots pine seed from a whole bunch of different places. 4 or 5 locations in Italy alone. Any thoughts on this? Do Italian varieties tend to have shorter needles?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Please don't see it as an absolute answer, Italy knows mountains, shorelines, rocky areas and everything in between. I guess that the ones up the mountains are closer to the ones we have up north of Europe.
I got mine from an Italian ebay seller and indeed they seem to have shorter needles, shorter internodes and in general they stay a lot smaller. It's like they're scaled down by a few (5-ish) percents compared to the natives here in the north.
If you have acces to other cultivars to choose from, do try to get the norwegian type or 'norsk typ' as well. These have the tendency to become more bushy, almost like a spruce. They seem to bud more vigorous than regular types, but they are a bit slower in overall growth it seems. My notes say they're the closest to jbp when it comes to responsiveness to techniques, but the scots are double as tough.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

On an extra note: the italian ones are more susceptible to needlecast and other fungal pathogens. That's what literature says at least. All of my native scots have had it at some point. It's going to take a few years to see if the italian ones will get it too and how much havoc it wreaks. Judging from their looks and toughness, I think they'll be just fine with some copper sulphate and extra trace elements. It seems to work!

 

[August44]

Interesting. I have heard that the Scots pine is a very good Bonsai tree. We have none around here in the wild and about none in the nursery's for some reason. If I was to look on the net for some, which one(s) would I look for that would make the best trees? Maybe you know where I can get some . Thanks, Peter

 

[August44]

When I google Scots pine, sometimes Scotch pines come up. Are they the same?

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Interesting. I have heard that the Scots pine is a very good Bonsai tree. We have none around here in the wild and about none in the nursery's for some reason. If I was to look on the net for some, which one(s) would I look for that would make the best trees? Maybe you know where I can get some . Thanks, Peter

Peter, I would be very surprised to find that no nurseries sell scots pine in Oregon. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find that more scots pine are grown in Oregon than any other state. Oregon is the conifer growing capital of the USA. Now, if you're looking for high quality field grown Scots pine pre-bonsai, I know that Telperion Farms near Salem, OR grows scots. Just do a quick google search for Telperion Farms and you'll find their website. If theres not much listed on the site, you can always give them a call.

To answer your other question, yes, Scots and Scotch pine are the same tree, both common names of Pinus sylvestris

 

[0soyoung]

Scots and Scotch pine are the same tree

Naw.

A 'Scotch pine' is a version of the DTs; e.g. "I need another one, neat." is a Scotch pine.
But seriously, 'Scotch' is a whiskey made from barley malt in Scotland by Scotsmen.

Exactly why pinus sylvestris became known as the scots pine, likely has some analog in why pinus nigra became known as the Austrian pine. The natural ranges of each are far greater than the land area of the associated ethnicity/country.


... okay, end of pedantic crap.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Europeans tend to phonetically say "peenus" and not "pine-us" like you US guys. The latin speaking people of Europe have thought of it first, so they must be right. As long as you guys can keep the grin off of your faces, I'm fine with using latin names. ;-)

 

[August44]

Mike, I meant that Scots pines are not sold in my area for some reason. I will check nursery you mentioned. Thanks for info. Peter

 

[0soyoung]

Scots pines are not sold in my area for some reason.

They are rather scarce over here also, which is surprising because they are a favored root stock for other decorative landscape pines with growers on the west side of the Cascades.

Sylvestris varietals are available from ConiferKindom.com, WabiSabiBonsai.com, forestfarm.com via web/mail order. Iseli produces a number of sylvestris cultivars, if you have a local retail nursery that does business with them. Hope this helps, @Peter44.

 

[August44]

That's good info. Thanks Osoyoung. I hear that the one to get is the French, dark green one but I don't know that for sure and don't know the full scientific name. Maybe someone here does and I could look for it. Iseli just has twigs from what I can tell now. Maybe I need to call them. Peter

PS: wish I could call myself "Osoyoung"

 

[0soyoung]

I could call myself "Osoyoung"

You can, though it would create some obvious confusion.

'Naught' = 0 (zero) and 'not' are homophones, I am just an old Mr. Young who is an inveterate punster


Do infer correctly from this comment that you are and an oh so young Mr. Young (no relation, of course)?

 

[Victorim]

Europeans tend to phonetically say "peenus" and not "pine-us" like you US guys. The latin speaking people of Europe have thought of it first, so they must be right. As long as you guys can keep the grin off of your faces, I'm fine with using latin names. ;-)

I'm just about still european.. and its deffinatly "Pine-us" in these parts Never fail to get a laugh from opening the store on a frosted morning, peeps saying feck its cold and i say "I know.. my pinus is stuck to the bench!"

 

[M. Frary]

An update.
Not quite a year out.
I put them in these cups in pure D.E. for a couple years then most if not all will go into colanders.
I ended up with 48.
None of these got ate because they were encased in ice. Literally.
All survived that and it's been a week since putting them in cups and all of the buds are opening up.
I barerooted them and cut the tap roots off.
Tough little buggers.