Liquid fertilizer killing moss?

[Yugen]

I burn moss with one application of miracle grow at the rates I apply it.
If you're worried about pretty moss,don't.
No need for moss.
In fact the only time a tree should have it on the substrate is for showing.
It can actually hinder air flow through the substrate.
You're in this for the trees not the moss.

I dont understand how moss can be so detrimental to root air flow. I have several trees that are fully mossed up and I have no loss of water percolation and therefore no loss of air flow. Even IF the water has a hard time moving down, why would air? Those big holes in the bottom of the pot will not keep much water between the rocky "soil". Air can enter through the bottom as well and penetrate up, no?

 

[Schmikah]

Source,

Look, I've been doing this for going on 25 years. I've used just about every "natural" fert around, as well as the chemical stuff. One is not any better than the other. One is DEFINITELY more expensive than the other -- on average "natural" stuff brings a higher price tag for less immediate results.

Ryan Neil says a lot of stuff. I tend to take a lot of it with a grain of salt. Seen him in demos. He's very engaging in person. Knows what he's talking about. But he has very little experience with species and practices outside of the Northwest. Some of his advice on some things, is, well, a bit bent towards his particular way of growing things. What works for him in the PNW, doesn't cut it in other locations. Moss (FWIW), doesn't "die" here in the south in full sun. It goes dormant turning brown and crispy in the sun for the summer. Trying to keep it "alive" in that time is futile and will kill the tree beneath it, for the most part. It comes back in the fall as it cools off and rain returns.

Moss is moss. It comes and goes. It is not a "first line" of anything. It is an opportunistic, fleeting companion to bonsai. If you're using moss as an indicator of your tree's health, you're looking in the wrong direction and possibly harming your tree.

Trying to actively cultivate moss is silly. I'd bet Ryan doesn't have to do anything to keep moss alive up in wet, rainy, cool coastal rainforest...

I've just recently started cultivating moss. I also live in the south, and I just don't buy your assertion.

I agree some moss can't handle the sunlight. I agree that some moss dies off (moss doesn't go dormant, it dies and the spores it had released reestablish the moss bed) and then greens up when the light intensity dies down.

Also, moss is not moss. There are enough different varieties in my back yard to give me a life long hobby of just figuring out how those grow in different environments.

I agree, actively cultivating moss is silly. But encouraging it to grow is, usually, good in a bonsai container maybe excepting a few species (that I don't know about but leaving the door open) that are very arid leaning.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Moss are only a problem to the bark of a very few species of trees, and only when left on for too long where the bark is consumed and/or deteriorated and after removal the bark looks different from dry bark further up the tree. If anything, the moss helps retain moisture in the upper regions of the pot and provides a cooling effect on the pot in the sun.
Collecting moss for whatever purposes is just another part of serious gardening and bonsai.

 

[M. Frary]

I dont understand how moss can be so detrimental to root air flow. I have several trees that are fully mossed up and I have no loss of water percolation and therefore no loss of air flow. Even IF the water has a hard time moving down, why would air? Those big holes in the bottom of the pot will not keep much water between the rocky "soil". Air can enter through the bottom as well and penetrate up, no?

Think of it as a can with only one hole in the top.
Water still pours out.
Put another hole in the top and watch how much better the water flows out.

 

[sorce]

All it needs is water.

Nothing else matters.

It's not hard to only water the moss.

So trees don't have to be "overwet".

Sorce

 

[Yugen]

Think of it as a can with only one hole in the top.
Water still pours out.
Put another hole in the top and watch how much better the water flows out.

Think of it as a can with only one hole in the top.
Water still pours out.
Put another hole in the top and watch how much better the water flows out.

It makes sense that no moss would allow for faster air transfer, but with moss, at least for what I've seen, water goes in and water exits the bottom of the pot in seconds. No vacuum, no problem

 

[rockm]

I've just recently started cultivating moss. I also live in the south, and I just don't buy your assertion.

I agree some moss can't handle the sunlight. I agree that some moss dies off (moss doesn't go dormant, it dies and the spores it had released reestablish the moss bed) and then greens up when the light intensity dies down.

Also, moss is not moss. There are enough different varieties in my back yard to give me a life long hobby of just figuring out how those grow in different environments.

I agree, actively cultivating moss is silly. But encouraging it to grow is, usually, good in a bonsai container maybe excepting a few species (that I don't know about but leaving the door open) that are very arid leaning.

I neither encourage or discourage it. I have found when it does grow, it is temporary. Dries up in the sun. I have trees that tend to like full sun all summer. Comes back in the fall. I have seen no benefit from it, other than slowing drainage and attracting squirrels and birds that love to dig at it. Encouraging it is OK, I guess, if you're into moss. I don't really pay it much attention. If it happens, it happens.

I agree there are different kinds of moss, some stuff, like liverwort and other mistaken for moss like selaginellas. Some of those can be a problem, as they grow into dense mats that choke drainage or grow up trunks, trapping water against it. That can lead to problems if it's not scrubbed off regularly. I have particular problems with some kind of "moss" that likes my oak over the years.

 

[sdavis]

My boy Ryan Neil might have something to say about that.

I think that's the right video. As long as the moss isn't limiting your ability to water then it's all good.

wrong video

 

[Schmikah]

wrong video

I was being too quick. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Schmikah]

I neither encourage or discourage it. I have found when it does grow, it is temporary. Dries up in the sun. I have trees that tend to like full sun all summer. Comes back in the fall. I have seen no benefit from it, other than slowing drainage and attracting squirrels and birds that love to dig at it. Encouraging it is OK, I guess, if you're into moss. I don't really pay it much attention. If it happens, it happens.

I agree there are different kinds of moss, some stuff, like liverwort and other mistaken for moss like selaginellas. Some of those can be a problem, as they grow into dense mats that choke drainage or grow up trunks, trapping water against it. That can lead to problems if it's not scrubbed off regularly. I have particular problems with some kind of "moss" that likes my oak over the years.

I suppose I need to be more specific. I agree that moss in some pots just will not work. I.e. cascade pots that have a very small surface area and thus a very low water column height and small surface area (I've been experimenting this year and its been slow to start and hard to maintain, but I also think this is partially due to the water retention quality of the soil) may not work in the long term.

Also, I need to specify that I wasn't entirely disagreeing with you, and I didn't mean to come of as if I was saying "Ryan said, so its true, period". Even Ryan clarifies that moss is good to a point. I know I'm a noob and I bow to the experience of you guys that have been doing it for a long time. I just think there are some things that all of us can learn.

That being said, when you say that you see moss as a "temporary" thing, I have seen that it entirely depends on the tree/pot combination. I have some shitakusa/kusamono and the moss and algae on them is flourishing. That comes down to hours of daylight, soil moister, and soil composition for that specific moss variety.

 

[rockm]

I suppose I need to be more specific. I agree that moss in some pots just will not work. I.e. cascade pots that have a very small surface area and thus a very low water column height and small surface area (I've been experimenting this year and its been slow to start and hard to maintain, but I also think this is partially due to the water retention quality of the soil) may not work in the long term.

Also, I need to specify that I wasn't entirely disagreeing with you, and I didn't mean to come of as if I was saying "Ryan said, so its true, period". Even Ryan clarifies that moss is good to a point. I know I'm a noob and I bow to the experience of you guys that have been doing it for a long time. I just think there are some things that all of us can learn.

That being said, when you say that you see moss as a "temporary" thing, I have seen that it entirely depends on the tree/pot combination. I have some shitakusa/kusamono and the moss and algae on them is flourishing. That comes down to hours of daylight, soil moister, and soil composition for that specific moss variety.

Has nothing to do with tree/pot combination. Has everything to do with soil composition and watering habits, as well as sun and wind exposure. Additionally, root masses that haven't been thoroughly purged of old soil tend to get moss because of constant moisture in the root mass--which isn't necessarily a good thing. BTW, I'm no physicist, but I've heard that cascade pots have tend to have exceedingly good water column drainage, as the height increases water pressure. The bottom of the pot may stay wet, but that can be mitigated with soil composition. Low wide pots have a low water column and tend to drain a lot less quickly, and are more prone to staying wet than pots of more depth...

 

[Schmikah]

BTW, I'm no physicist, but I've heard that cascade pots have tend to have exceedingly good water column drainage, as the height increases water pressure. The bottom of the pot may stay wet, but that can be mitigated with soil composition. Low wide pots have a low water column and tend to drain a lot less quickly, and are more prone to staying wet than pots of more depth...

Cascade pots do drain down to a low column height (compared to their total height), which is what I said. Also, low and wide pots actually have a much greater percentage of their total height that retains the water column. That is why they stay wet, it's just about proportions.

 

[Vance Wood]

I dont understand how moss can be so detrimental to root air flow. I have several trees that are fully mossed up and I have no loss of water percolation and therefore no loss of air flow. Even IF the water has a hard time moving down, why would air? Those big holes in the bottom of the pot will not keep much water between the rocky "soil". Air can enter through the bottom as well and penetrate up, no?

It's not.

 

[rockm]

It's not.

The issue is WHY the moss grows and how that intentional cultivation can affect the bigger picture of the bonsai is growing with. Healthy moss typical means constantly moist or even wet soil.

Moss likes fine particled soil that stays constantly moist to grow on, since it has no roots to take up water . Big gaps and air spaces between particles slows it down, or even prevents it from forming on soil surfaces. To fill the gaps that typical good bonsai soil has requires adding a finer particulate soil to "hold" the moss on top of it. That finer soil can be attached to the back of collected moss. In my area, that's usually clay---that amendment soil will wash into the soil underneath, potentially clogging up drainage.

Also, I've seen over the years, that moss typically develops on trees that already have poor drainage and a lot of moisture on the surface because of that. Trees that have not had adequate root work can have areas with dense matted roots that retain water and grow moss. It CAN be an indication you're not repotting adequately, or your soil is too fine...

 

[Schmikah]

The issue is WHY the moss grows and how that intentional cultivation can affect the bigger picture of the bonsai is growing with. Healthy moss typical means constantly moist or even wet soil.

Moss likes fine particled soil that stays constantly moist to grow on, since it has no roots to take up water . Big gaps and air spaces between particles slows it down, or even prevents it from forming on soil surfaces. To fill the gaps that typical good bonsai soil has requires adding a finer particulate soil to "hold" the moss on top of it. That finer soil can be attached to the back of collected moss. In my area, that's usually clay---that amendment soil will wash into the soil underneath, potentially clogging up drainage.

Also, I've seen over the years, that moss typically develops on trees that already have poor drainage and a lot of moisture on the surface because of that. Trees that have not had adequate root work can have areas with dense matted roots that retain water and grow moss. It CAN be an indication you're not repotting adequately, or your soil is too fine...

I partially agree. It can be and indication that your repotting window is coming. However, its not especially a sign that a tree has "a lot" of moisture on the surface. Obviously the moss does need moisture, but I have wild moss growing on a kusamono soil surface that is about 75% akadama. That soil drains freely but since it is a shallow pot with mostly akadama, moss is perfectly happy growing on that surface.

Moss does have roots. You can even cut the roots off of moss and cultivate a moss pad from the roots (and then use the moss "top", for lack of a better word, to dress a tree for shows).

Also I think I finally see where you're coming from. The moss that you are talking about is moss that grows on mostly organic surfaces. The moss that I have used for shows and am currently experimenting with comes from aggregate surfaces. I completely agree with you IF you use moss that is attached to a clay rich soil, you probably will have drainage issues. You will probably also have way too much moisture in the top level of soil.

Aggregate moss, however, mostly clings to concrete, stones, lava/pumice/DE, so there is no attached "soil" to clog up the drainage.

 

[rockm]

I partially agree. It can be and indication that your repotting window is coming. However, its not especially a sign that a tree has "a lot" of moisture on the surface. Obviously the moss does need moisture, but I have wild moss growing on a kusamono soil surface that is about 75% akadama. That soil drains freely but since it is a shallow pot with mostly akadama, moss is perfectly happy growing on that surface.

Moss does have roots. You can even cut the roots off of moss and cultivate a moss pad from the roots (and then use the moss "top", for lack of a better word, to dress a tree for shows).

Also I think I finally see where you're coming from. The moss that you are talking about is moss that grows on mostly organic surfaces. The moss that I have used for shows and am currently experimenting with comes from aggregate surfaces. I completely agree with you IF you use moss that is attached to a clay rich soil, you probably will have drainage issues. You will probably also have way too much moisture in the top level of soil.

Aggregate moss, however, mostly clings to concrete, stones, lava/pumice/DE, so there is no attached "soil" to clog up the drainage.

Nope moss does not have roots. It has more primitive systems that anchor the plant, but can't directly transport water

"They don't have roots. Instead they have thin root-like growths called rhizoids that help anchor them. Because they don't have roots and stems to transport water, mosses dry out very quickly, so they are usually found in moist habitats."

Bryophytes - NatureWorks

nhpbs.org

Like I said, top soil has to have constant moisture, which means your drainage probably isn't great if you get moss growing on its own.

 

[Yugen]

I didn't get notifications for these replies??! In my settings I have notifications turned on for replies to a watched thread and I auto watch my own threads ???

@rockm @Schmikah Thank you for your comments, your thoughts have really added to my understanding. The term "intentional cultivation of moss" has been thrown around my thread a lot and I'd like to clarify that my intention for watering/fertilizing is only for the tree. In this process I hope to have healthy moss as I feel it adds great character, is part of my rain forest biome and beneficial properties. I haven't encountered any negative effects.. thus far. I have seen the danger of the small sand that is under collected moss. I try to brush off and hose off as much as possible. One moss caution I'm currently working on is determining whether the natural bug life in the moss is beneficial or not. I've seen nematodes, garden worms, pill bugs and others I cant identify. Most moss, by the bare eye, seems without bug life...

I'm under the impression that my generally successful moss cultivation comes from my primary use of pumice. Pumice would allow for an optimal oxygen water component for the bonsai roots, and I figure that the moss would utilize the small amounts of water trapped in the pumices porous structure.

 

[Schmikah]

Nope moss does not have roots. It has more primitive systems that anchor the plant, but can't directly transport water

"They don't have roots. Instead they have thin root-like growths called rhizoids that help anchor them. Because they don't have roots and stems to transport water, mosses dry out very quickly, so they are usually found in moist habitats."

Bryophytes - NatureWorks

nhpbs.org

Like I said, top soil has to have constant moisture, which means your drainage probably isn't great if you get moss growing on its own.

My bad. However the rhizoids do absorb water (at a much lower rate than true roots I'll concede), and can even help capillary action, pulling water from the substrate up to the "stem" of the moss to be further absorbed (mosslovers.com, among other sources). And though the water exchange process is not as efficient as in vascular plants, rhizoids do provide some water and nutrients through cell-to-cell exchange (I assume through osmosis though the sources I found are unclear on the exact mechanism).

Your assertion that simply because moss has to have a high moisture environment, that drainage is poor if wild moss takes hold on a surface doesn't hold. As we know, akadama is a volcanic clay. This, in and of itself, indicates that akadama will retain more moisture that other common inorganic soil components. Even excluding akadama, moss that thrives on aggregate surfaces will be very happy growing on lava soil components, at it is specifically chosen to retain moisture.

But to give you credit, in the kusamono/shitakusa that I have seen moss developing on are grassy varieties that require some shade, so the surface dries at a much slower rate than most of the trees I have, as the soil surface is exposed to sun for a much shorter period throughout the day.

 

[geislerf]

ohh, I dealt with this problem before and I'm happy I got rid of it. I have a garden full of knockout roses but there was moss starting to grow and I became quite unpleased with it. I saw online that there is this fertilizer Lilly Miller Moss Out that also kills the moss. I bought it and it helped me quite a lot to be honest. I got rid of the moss in like a month. It was also the best fertilizer for knockout roses that I used because I saw that they started to bloom more densely.