Large oak start

[noob72]

I am just getting started in bonsai, and have some specimens in the the ground that I will be digging up and potting for development next year. I also have a sizable Willow Oak (Quercus phellos) growing too close to the house and it must be cut down. It is something I have neglected to do for years and this tree now has a 6 inch trunk and is about 20 feet tall. I figured since it has to go anyways and I'm just getting into bonsai, why not try and pot this tree and develop it. Any advice on working with such a large specimen. I plan to go with chokkan style since it already has a large straight trunk. My biggest curiosity is how to develop taper on a large tree, specifically how low to cut the trunk of this tree that will likely end up being 3-4 feet tall. Any other advice is welcomed. I know it's a large task for a beginner, but as I said, the tree has to go regardless, and I might as well cut my teeth and gain some experience. Thanks.

 

[BrianBay9]

Well your first job will be to get it out of the ground and potted up. I haven't worked with a willow oak. I would collect it late winter/early spring. You'll probably need a reciprocating saw to cut major roots maybe 18 inches or so from the trunk. If it has a major tap root you'll need to dig down far enough to get access to it to cut. If you're lucky you might be able to use the upper trunk as a lever to pull the tree sideways to get better access to a tap root. It's likely to be A LOT of work.

Once out cut the trunk down to maybe 12 to 18 inches. If there are low branches leave them in place. Now you need to put it in something to grow out. You'll probably need to build a grow box to fit what you get out of the ground. Pot it up in free draining soil (I use mostly pumice), put it someplace with morning sun and PM shade, keep it moist but not soaked, mist as often as you can, and wait.

Don't move it again. Don't work on it. Wait. Maybe a couple of years. Larger trees can fool you and throw out new growth from the energy stored in the trunk. You'll need new roots. Wait until it's growing really aggressively before you start thinking about working it. Don't even worry about how you want to work it until you're sure it's going to survive.

Post some pictures. Others here probably have worked willow oaks. Certainly others here will be from your part of the country and give you more specific advice. Good luck!

 

[noob72]

All good advice. Should I cut the roots and leave it in the ground for another year, or will transplanting to pot this winter be ok.

 

[BrianBay9]

I would do it all at once.

 

[doc spring _work]

Looking forward to the progression.

 

[Shibui]

I haven't moved any willow leaf so can't be sure they react like the other species I have transplanted. Oaks generally don't seem to cope real well with root reduction so don't be too disappointed if the willow leaf oak doesn't survive the transplant.
You could try cutting some surface roots now. Hopefully, by Spring, the cut roots will have started to grow some new roots which should help transplant. Just be aware that you need to cut reasonably close to the trunk. Most people cut way too far out, then, when they dig the new roots won't fit into a container so be mindful of what sized container you'll be using and allow for the fact that roots grow longer rather than shorter.

 

[noob72]

I haven't moved any willow leaf so can't be sure they react like the other species I have transplanted. Oaks generally don't seem to cope real well with root reduction so don't be too disappointed if the willow leaf oak doesn't survive the transplant.
You could try cutting some surface roots now. Hopefully, by Spring, the cut roots will have started to grow some new roots which should help transplant. Just be aware that you need to cut reasonably close to the trunk. Most people cut way too far out, then, when they dig the new roots won't fit into a container so be mindful of what sized container you'll be using and allow for the fact that roots grow longer rather than shorter.

Do you think cutting surface roots with a spade now then transplanting to pot in the early spring is advisable to allow roots to re-establish near the trunk. Option 2 would be to wait til transplant in early spring and just cut all the roots at that time.

 

[jerrymc]

It might more sense to pick out a branch that looks like it could develop into a tree & layer it; if the layer works for you, you now have a small "clone" of the parent, which can be potted, grown, styled, bonsai'd or anything else you like to do with it, rather than take on a back-breaking, probably futile effort to dig-up & attempt to pot a 20 ft. tree & spend the 4-5 years it will take to reduce to container size..just my 2 cents worth..

 

[noob72]

It might more sense to pick out a branch that looks like it could develop into a tree & layer it; if the layer works for you, you now have a small "clone" of the parent, which can be potted, grown, styled, bonsai'd or anything else you like to do with it, rather than take on a back-breaking, probably futile effort to dig-up & attempt to pot a 20 ft. tree & spend the 4-5 years it will take to reduce to container size..just my 2 cents worth..

I see your point, but I'm digging it out regardless. Might not be worth the effort to develop it for bonsai though.

 

[rockm]

All good advice. Should I cut the roots and leave it in the ground for another year, or will transplanting to pot this winter be ok.

I would collect it all at once in the spring before bud break. WIllow oak is one of the more collectible eastern oak species. It pretty shallow rooted and a tree that size is definitely collectible. It will be A LOT of digging sawing etc. Try to get the root mass six to eight inches out from the trunk

Keep some original soil ( but not a lot) on the roots.

Here’s one Zach Smith dug. It’s a bit smaller than the one you’re after but treat it the same way (note small initial pot) and initial collection date ( late winter in La) March-ish. Having collected with Zach he took it out all at once. Probably using a cordless sawzall

Progression – Willow Oak 1 | Bonsai South

bonsai-south.com

 

[Attmos]

Why not cut the top before pulling it?

 

[rockm]

Why not cut the top before pulling it?

If you chop it months before digging it up you weaken the tree. If you top it just before digging it up you lose a huge lever that helps get the roots out of the ground (Same hold true for chopping the season before digging it up). having the tall trunk as leverage to help move the trunk up and down around the sides is crucial. The root mass you will be working on will likely be in The hundreds of lbs and will have roots connected. Being able to shift that weight and get underneath the trunk is the crucial part.

If you have a short stub you make that work extra hard

 

[noob72]

I would collect it all at once in the spring before bud break. WIllow oak is one of the more collectible eastern oak species. It pretty shallow rooted and a tree that size is definitely collectible. It will be A LOT of digging sawing etc. Try to get the root mass six to eight inches out from the trunk

Keep some original soil ( but not a lot) on the roots.

Here’s one Zach Smith dug. It’s a bit smaller than the one you’re after but treat it the same way (note small initial pot) and initial collection date ( late winter in La) March-ish. Having collected with Zach he took it out all at once. Probably using a cordless sawzall

Progression – Willow Oak 1 | Bonsai South

bonsai-south.com

That was a perfect response. Great pictures. It gives me hope. I am planning to pot it in early spring, but wondering if I should cut the roots with a spade now so it has all winter to develop some fibrous root while still in the ground. Will this improve survivability when I do pull it out 5 months from now?

 

[Shibui]

I would collect it all at once in the spring before bud break. WIllow oak is one of the more collectible eastern oak species. It pretty shallow rooted and a tree that size is definitely collectible. It will be A LOT of digging sawing etc. Try to get the root mass six to eight inches out from the trunk

Good to know that willow leaf is more resilient than some others.

If you have a short stub you make that work extra hard

My experience too. I also keep a longer trunk for exactly those reasons.

Do you think cutting surface roots with a spade now then transplanting to pot in the early spring is advisable to allow roots to re-establish near the trunk. Option 2 would be to wait til transplant in early spring and just cut all the roots at that time.

@rockm has told us that willow leaf is relatively easy to transplant so cutting roots early is not really necessary.
If you do decide to cut some surface roots early, now would be a good time but I doubt you'll be able to do it with a spade. You're welcome to try but getting in close enough to the trunk is difficult then getting enough pressure to cut through even moderately thick hard wood roots is even more difficult. Spade cuts are likely to end up rough - if you can chop through the roots. Dig down to the surface roots so you can see exactly where you are cutting. Then cut through with a sawsall or large branch loppers to get a clean cut which will heal and grow new roots much better,

 

[noob72]

Good to know that willow leaf is more resilient than some others.

My experience too. I also keep a longer trunk for exactly those reasons.


@rockm has told us that willow leaf is relatively easy to transplant so cutting roots early is not really necessary.
If you do decide to cut some surface roots early, now would be a good time but I doubt you'll be able to do it with a spade. You're welcome to try but getting in close enough to the trunk is difficult then getting enough pressure to cut through even moderately thick hard wood roots is even more difficult. Spade cuts are likely to end up rough - if you can chop through the roots. Dig down to the surface roots so you can see exactly where you are cutting. Then cut through with a sawsall or large branch loppers to get a clean cut which will heal and grow new roots much better,

I think I'll do it all at once as suggested. Great advice everyone. I will post with pictures and progress starting in February or March.

 

[rockm]

That was a perfect response. Great pictures. It gives me hope. I am planning to pot it in early spring, but wondering if I should cut the roots with a spade now so it has all winter to develop some fibrous root while still in the ground. Will this improve survivability when I do pull it out 5 months from now?

Do NOT cut the roots now. It will weaken the tree. It will NOT really develop new fibrous roots. We have two months (possibly) before the ground cools enough to stop root growth.

Cutting roots now will NOT improve survival. It will likely do the opposite. Take it all at once in the spring just before the leaf buds break open. That’s when the tree is at its peak to survive collection as it has prepared itself to grow not prepared itself for dormancy