Large and Awkward Japanese Black Pine...

[Todd-H]

Hey All,
So, I have had this JBP(my only one) for three seasons now. I took a workshop with Jim Doyle and this was the tree I received. It's branch placement is awkward but I think I see its future. The last three seasons I have been learning how to improve its vigor in my zone(5A), due to the cold winters I struggled with it at first. I have done some branch removal and now I'm thinking I will leave it alone until wiring and cut back in the fall. Hopefully I made the right choices.

Before



After

 

[aml1014]

IMO that low branch is FAR to thick for the design. I feel if you jinned or shortened it back to those small branches higher up, it would drastically improve the design. Nice start for sure though!

Aaron

 

[hemmy]

The last three seasons I have been learning how to improve its vigor in my zone(5A), due to the cold winters I struggled with it at first.

Care to share how? Cold frame? Greenhouse? Heat mat?

 

[jriddell88]

Remove some of that wire

 

[Todd-H]

Care to share how? Cold frame? Greenhouse? Heat mat?

I keep it in an unheated garage through the winter. It does get down below freezing occasionally but not often. The hardest part was finding the balance between over or under watering through the winter. The first winter I wasn't sure if it would pull through but it bounced back well. I don't plan to add more JBP to my collection for the time being, maybe when I'm feeling confident with my seasonal processes on this one.

 

[Todd-H]

IMO that low branch is FAR to thick for the design. I feel if you jinned or shortened it back to those small branches higher up, it would drastically improve the design. Nice start for sure though!

Aaron

In time I hope to fill that whole side out with foliage and mask some of the boring aspects of that branch. I'm thinking it will almost touch the soil line, maybe two inches above. We'll see how it turns out. Th problem is that everything else is too high in the tree.

 

[Todd-H]

Remove some of that wire

The branches with the deep wire scars are what came off. The stuff at the bottom is messy, I know. I'll be fixing that soon.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Trunk very straight /uninteresting. Personally see future as pick best angle for any trunk movement to be seen then add movement to low branch and remove rest of upper foliage. Trunk too long for where branches start. Just hiding behind foliage does not change this so need different avenue to make whole tree interesting. Can also change trunk angle.

 

[Djtommy]

can you still make some good bends if the low branch? if you remove it whats left is maybe ok but maybe not so interesting.
before removing it perhaps try to make this into the main feature of the tree, get some bends into it, get it even closer to the trunk. and if it sucks you can still get rid of it .

 

[Clicio]

I am with Aaron, as he says:
"IMO that low branch is FAR to thick for the design. I feel if you jinned..."
The branch as it is now bothers me a lot, creating an imbalance hard to cope on the tree. My two cents.

 

[markyscott]

I agree with some of the other comments. Drop branches can be very beautiful, but I don’t think yours adds to the tree. I think I’d lose it and build your branches from what remains. They can be brought down more.

S

 

[Todd-H]

I agree on the overall lack of character and movement to the trunk and that thick branch. I will keep thinking about the next steps and where the tree should go. Depending on how it grows this spring I may start wiring it and see what happens. For the moment I will continue to try to bring that branch in closer to the trunk and see what I can do about adding some movement. It may come off in the future.

 

[sorce]

Once again...Potty has the right flush!

What are we working towards in another manner? Without grafts and blah blah....
That knob up there is going to be ugly in its own. Tiny boink. Sure you can hide it, but for what? A thick straight trunk that will always be a hideous err of a formal upright pine?

This is no longer a Japanese tree...

Enter WP....

Make ugly uglier!

The top isn't "ugly" it's hideous, working to it
Isn't making ugly uglier IMO. Hideous and Ugly are different.

I commend you for not cutting that branch off yet.....
And Potty for The best advice....

That branch is a bit more the "Ugly," you can make uglier, since it is not pretending to be something its not.

It may take a little work, but you already have a plan says your ready for it. Pulling it down, hiding it, ....grafting some closer branches to it?

Can't see the surface roots, but the basal flare alone is interesting, which is both good and bad, because its nice enough that it ADDS to the hideous of a weak upright, in that it hints to that strong, healthy perfection.

It is also good enough to make a serious graft project with.

But personally, I'd work on Just that one branch too.

If I kept it though.

Where is your "bar"?

I want to build a collection of stuff that people I respect, like Jim Doyle, would want for themselves, not relinquish to a "demo tree".

I want to work on a wicked dope collected piece from THG. From anywhere.

So this would be for "practice" for me, with a side effort of that interesting one branch joint till it gets stack ranked .

My bar.....when Walter comes to THG and finds 2 trees so dope he goes thru a hassle to send one back to Germany......

I want the other one.

Knowing your personal Bar makes these decisions easier to make!

Sounds like I'd trade this to make space for a dope Thuja! More Larch?

Network with friends to find a dude with a greenhouse and mad JBP grafting skills who has a dope thuja to trade?

How to simply Add the most value to your entire collection using this tree?

That's my new favorite question....!

If we start thinking in terms of our big picture, our space, our entire collection, and how to make it better in total...we will witness faster success!

Sorry for bombing your thread!
Racing a lot of thoughts out before I return to 9-5ing.....or not!

Sorce

 

[AlainK]

IMO that low branch is FAR to thick for the design.

To me, the problem is not that it's too thick, it's too straight.

I think using "good" wiring technique, this banch could become one of the main features of the tree...

 

[Todd-H]

There's a lot to process there Sorce...

I have thought about engaging in a serious grafting campaign with this one but don't have the skills.

I have also thought about "hollowing" out the branch, embedding some heavy wire and bending the hell out of it.

This is one of my "hideous" project trees that I am using to learn about the species and bonsai in general. I've been at this for about nine years and I feel like I just beginning to get the hang of it.

I wish my wife would let me spend our money on a few trees from THG but alas it is not so.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I think I like sorce's idea but I'll add my own take. Try to work in a bunch of movement to the cascading branch as you are planning. Then do some carving on the trunk and try induce some movement via a life-line while chopping out the ghoulish swelling/transition. I don't have much experience with life-lines and am not sure how much leeway you have when making a lifeline out of a currently living trunk, but I would think you could try to approach in stages to try and maximize your movement without cutting off the sap flow to your target branch. Maybe remove the existing top, or most of it?

edit, or add some holes and hollows to the trunk. It may be big an boring now, but there is a lot of material to work with. Fight boring with boring?

 

[River's Edge]

I agree on the overall lack of character and movement to the trunk and that thick branch. I will keep thinking about the next steps and where the tree should go. Depending on how it grows this spring I may start wiring it and see what happens. For the moment I will continue to try to bring that branch in closer to the trunk and see what I can do about adding some movement. It may come off in the future.

Great opportunity to practise grafting on the trunk and lower branch for starters. Think about decandling a few outside the design parameter to set up scions for next year. Then study grafting and get ready to try it next March or whatever is the best timing for your location. One or two grafts on the lower branch and a graft on the left side of the trunk would improve the overall quite a bit. Perhaps there is an experienced bonsai person nearby to help with the first attempts.