Knobby Trident

[Grant Hamby]

Just thought I'd start a thread on this trident I picked up on the FB auction. It's got some issues, but I'm excited to see where I can take it.




The obvious issue is the lack of taper in the upper section. I've been searching for a new leader to cut back to.




Here is my first idea, but I'm open to suggestions.



I've got plenty of time to figure out a game plan. In the spring, I'll repot and examine the root system. Depending on what I find, I will put the tree in a pond basket or a training pot, and get the tree in some good bonsai soil.

Anyway, thanks for checking it out. If you have any ideas, feel free to let me know!

 

[j evans]

Good start. I look forward to see what everyone suggests.

 

[Tieball]

I can't see the tree in 3D....but my gut feeling is let it grow and begin to tell you more about what it (the tree) wants to do with growth. I think you need a couple of good growing seasons....not knowing what the health was prior to your FB purchase ....bringing the tree's health to your satisfaction. Giving the tree some relaxed growth. During the growth time I'd probably eliminate any double or triple branches growing from one point of trunk contact....reducing the clump to one branch only. The tree has good potential...you have the tree in front of you though....what are your thoughts on a desirable tree height? What's your target height? Just curious.....

 

[Grant Hamby]

I can't see the tree in 3D....but my gut feeling is let it grow and begin to tell you more about what it (the tree) wants to do with growth. I think you need a couple of good growing seasons....not knowing what the health was prior to your FB purchase ....bringing the tree's health to your satisfaction. Giving the tree some relaxed growth. During the growth time I'd probably eliminate any double or triple branches growing from one point of trunk contact....reducing the clump to one branch only. The tree has good potential...you have the tree in front of you though....what are your thoughts on a desirable tree height? What's your target height? Just curious.....

My goal is a nice chunky little shohin. So, to have a decent shohin, I know I'm gonna have to get rid of that knobby apex monstrosity. But I think you're right, a year or two in a pond basket and good bonsai soil would do it well. I'm excited to see this tree in a season of active growth. I can't really gauge its health yet, I only received the tree today, and several leaves came off in transit.

Anyway, here's a photo of a tree that I've always been inspired by, and I'd love to shoot for this kind of vibe:

 

[petegreg]

I like second picture as for the front. Better nebari, reverse taper less visible...

You can air-layer higher half and have two little trees.

In case of going for your intended front, I would AL and then do chop right above first right branch. Nice little trident BTW.

The portion of trunk in blue circle
seems to be thicker than lower trunk. The orange line for chopping could fix it.

 

[petegreg]

And here's is the least invasive choice. I don't know actual height of the tree, but...

Following pic. No2, nice nebari and trunk movement. I'd let the lil' branches in yellow circle grow intact for 2-3 years. It will widen the lower trunk. I'd remove thick branch(es) in the middle part - red line and concave-cut at the orange line. Make these cuts deeper than you'd do on other species, trident caluses very well. I hope this helps. This is a quicker way, but you can have problems to keep it in shohin size(?).

 

[Grant Hamby]

@petegreg I think those are a couple great options! I'll study the tree further and see if one of these plans becomes the obvious choice. I never even thought of air layering. Two for one is always tempting.

 

[Dav4]

I wouldn't be too worried about picking a front right now. The tree looks weak to me, so I'd focus on health first and the nebari second. Re-pot next sprig into a shallow pot with good soil... I might even screw a flat board to the base and start working the roots ala Ebihara...http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ebihara-maples.18215/. Seeing the root base without soil will help picking your future front and then you can start working the canopy next spring after it starts to push. It's good stock...have fun.

 

[Grant Hamby]

I wouldn't be too worried about picking a front right now. The tree looks weak to me, so I'd focus on health first and the nebari second. Re-pot next sprig into a shallow pot with good soil... I might even screw a flat board to the base and start working the roots ala Ebihara...http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ebihara-maples.18215/. Seeing the root base without soil will help picking your future front and then you can start working the canopy next spring after it starts to push. It's good stock...have fun.

Thanks. I'd say this is probably the best immediate game plan. As the tree gets healthier and I become more familiar with it, the rest will become clearer.

 

[fh05]

Go with what Dav4 suggests for now. For the future style idea, I would try to make apex/new leader from the portion above the orange line in the last pic and just chop off the current leader. Address the reverse taper by just cutting a chunk off where the yellow circle is. Keep us posted.

 

[Grant Hamby]

Go with what Dav4 suggests for now. For the future style idea, I would try to make apex/new leader from the portion above the orange line in the last pic and just chop off the current leader. Address the reverse taper by just cutting a chunk off where the yellow circle is. Keep us posted.

Sounds good! I'll post a photo of it after leaf drop as well.

 

[Grant Hamby]

Perhaps a trunk line is emerging?



Slight reverse taper in the midsection, but maybe when I chomp those big branches off I can dig it out a bit.

 

[fh05]

Yes, toomany branches emerging at same level will cause the buldge. come spring repotting time, cut off some branches in that area. Easier if you know the potential front!

 

[sorce]

Bro....

That base reminds me of @Brian Van Fleet .....I mean MY Hawthorne! Lol...

Strong.

I would do everything to eliminate that bulge.

As soon as it shows health in spring....

I would skin it....and leave only 2 branches....
One up top....cut regularly....

And that low one....(34ft lol)
Whatever it takes to fix that.



After the bottom is fixed...
You can let the top grow strong again...
And as the history is laid out ....
It will bud again for your branching.

I just wouldn't settle for that bulge...and if it has to be bigger than shohin, so be it.

Sorce

 

[Grant Hamby]

Bro....

That base reminds me of @Brian Van Fleet .....I mean MY Hawthorne! Lol...

Strong.

I would do everything to eliminate that bulge.

As soon as it shows health in spring....

I would skin it....and leave only 2 branches....
One up top....cut regularly....

And that low one....(34ft lol)
Whatever it takes to fix that.

View attachment 127283

After the bottom is fixed...
You can let the top grow strong again...
And as the history is laid out ....
It will bud again for your branching.

I just wouldn't settle for that bulge...and if it has to be bigger than shohin, so be it.

Sorce

I think you're right! I can't settle for the bulge! And the trunk is super 2-dimensional. Very flat. Hopefully a 34 ft sacrifice helps a little, lol.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Well, if you're in it for the long game, and you want it to look like the tree in post #4, I'd suggest a more aggressive chop.

 

[sorce]

long game,

You reckon he could end up with a better transition..?
Iffin the sacrifice works...
And the roots swell the base.

I feel like the spread is worth taking the time to "size up".
And smack it to a well tapered turd a la smoke to regrow branching in 3-5 years.

Sorce

 

[Grant Hamby]

Well, if you're in it for the long game, and you want it to look like the tree in post #4, I'd suggest a more aggressive chop.
View attachment 127299 View attachment 127300 View attachment 127301 View attachment 127302 View attachment 127303

I love your virt!! Such a powerful little image. That's exactly what I want.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You reckon he could end up with a better transition..?
Iffin the sacrifice works...
And the roots swell the base.

I feel like the spread is worth taking the time to "size up".
And smack it to a well tapered turd a la smoke to regrow branching in 3-5 years.

Sorce

The problem I see with your suggested chop is that, while it keeps the movement in play, it provides no taper. Growing a large sacrifice branch (escape branch, really) from the trunk isn't a good solution: escape branches are good for thickening branches, but not nearly as effective at thickening the trunk they're attached to. And, the larger the branch, the larger the chop scar you get to deal with...on the front of the trunk.

So, if you're chopping anyway, chop low and use the explosive growth of the next section of trunk to close the chop, add taper, and add movement. Remember too, that the OP wants to create something like the shohin image he shared, so while you feel it's worth sizing up (not irrational), he has already stated he's going for smaller. With shohin, movement and taper are everything.

I tried both ways. I wasted almost 10 years on this trident, until I realized I needed to find the best part of the tree, and remove everything else. If I had done it right the first time, it would be in a show pot by now:
2002, 2010 (chop), 2016:

 

[sorce]

Great info BVF.
Thanks for the reminders!

What about chop year?

I propose...


Sorce