Kiwi’s Chinese Elm Broom

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi Vin,
Great question to which I can only guess, but from the last couple of posts they suggest growing a bigger trunk also. So that leads to my question to you. How big a trunk girth have you got? Or are you happy with it? If so, then growing branches is the way to go. I have seen from others threads on here re brooms that a 2 plus inch trunk is way more realistic.
My problem was I am impatient and thought my 2 broom trunks were big enough, but at 1 inch or so I have decided to let these grow for another season, to increase girth on both trunk, and sub-trunks. Never know, I might try a little shohin out of 1 of them, and start one into lots of branches after the next growing season, and let the other one grow.
My only question I ask myself is if I let the subtrunks grow, what will happen to the trunk chop sight. Sure, it will fill in as the subtrunks thicken, but will it bulge real bad and me to get pissed and waste another 3-4 years regrowing everything from a new chop sight.
Not sure if this has helped your thinking, but has kind of helped mine ?
Charles

 

[Shibui]

Question about brooms. I've noticed that a lot of people let them grow, then cut back at the end of the growing season, then repeat. Why not just let them grow freely until they get close to the desired thickness, THEN cut back for ramification?

Not sure who all these people are, but there are many ways to grow a bonsai. It may also depend where you are up to in development. I'd normally allow the main trunk to grow freely, probably with no cutbacks, until it reaches close to desired thickness the chop to get the secondary trunks/primary branches started. After that it is definitely a matter of repeated cut and grow - initially once a year but increasingly often as the branching develops. This is my way of getting more controlled ramification and smaller and smaller nodes as the branches progress. There is no point in developing branches based on long internodes - it may be quicker but you'll eventually wish you didn't and probably have to start over.

I have seen from others threads on here re brooms that a 2 plus inch trunk is way more realistic.

Surely the size of the trunk will depend on the ultimate size of the bonsai? 1" would be great for a shohin broom, probably excessive for mame, but way inadequate for a 2' tall bonsai. Make decisions based on the tree at hand rather than some proscribed set of numbers.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Question about brooms. I've noticed that a lot of people let them grow, then cut back at the end of the growing season, then repeat. Why not just let them grow freely until they get close to the desired thickness, THEN cut back for ramification?

This is a genuine question as I am working on a Chinese Elm broom as we speak. I wire the branches to grow outward, but other than that I let the tree grow...

It’s all about graceful transitions. You don’t want poms at the end of chunky stalks, and you do want short internodes.

 

[Vinnie Charity]

The trunk on my Chinese Elm is pretty substantial, here is an older picture of it from July 2018...



...and here it is in October 2018



I've just been letting it grow freely to thicken the branches, but should I be cutting them back every year instead?

This tree wasn't sealed or wrapped when I acquired it, so there are bulges at the chop points and I'll need to carve out the center so it will callus over. I have been contemplating just chopping it again to remedy these issues...

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Not sure who all these people are, but there are many ways to grow a bonsai. It may also depend where you are up to in development. I'd normally allow the main trunk to grow freely, probably with no cutbacks, until it reaches close to desired thickness the chop to get the secondary trunks/primary branches started. After that it is definitely a matter of repeated cut and grow - initially once a year but increasingly often as the branching develops. This is my way of getting more controlled ramification and smaller and smaller nodes as the branches progress. There is no point in developing branches based on long internodes - it may be quicker but you'll eventually wish you didn't and probably have to start over.


Surely the size of the trunk will depend on the ultimate size of the bonsai? 1" would be great for a shohin broom, probably excessive for mame, but way inadequate for a 2' tall bonsai. Make decisions based on the tree at hand rather than some proscribed set of numbers.

Hi,
Thankyou for your comments/advice. I take it onboard, and go learning also
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

The trunk on my Chinese Elm is pretty substantial, here is an older picture of it from July 2018...

View attachment 235337

...and here it is in October 2018

View attachment 235339

I've just been letting it grow freely to thicken the branches, but should I be cutting them back every year instead?

This tree wasn't sealed or wrapped when I acquired it, so there are bulges at the chop points and I'll need to carve out the center so it will callus over. I have been contemplating just chopping it again to remedy these issues...

Hi Vin,
Great trunk in your pictures.
So here’s my “lots of cents” opinion.
You have 2 or maybe 3 decisions to make.
1. Leave as is and grow an informal upright/broom with 1-3 sub-trunks with the massive scar from the chop at the back side of the composition.
2. Because of how it was chopped on the angle I have an issue trying to grow a more formal broom ( all sub-trunks starting from the same cut site. With that said, I wouldn’t have any bad feelings about chopping this again etc. Massive trunk equals great chance of getting sub-trunks to select from all round the chop site, and way cool project.
3. I have seen this tree of yours posted on another thread, and from that you were advised to COVER the roots to give yourself better odds of a nebari. So, my comments will be like this - cut off the roots completely that don’t form a horizontal plane nebari. As well as that when repotting, cut all remaining roots of real short like 1-3 inches, and downward roots off as well. And cut most of this year’s growth off so the tree doesn’t struggle to support itself.

Whew, if it was me, I would ground layer the trunk to form a new better nebari and one you are in control of from the start.
All of these decisions are made by you, and which direction you take is up to you.
Create a thread ( if not done ) and tag me in so I can watch and comment if it’s helpful.
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Update time - Eventhough it has only been a few weeks, I have received lots of advice, and thank you to those for helping.
Of the 2 brooms in question the tree, with the clamp on it, was cutting into the trunk. With 1 dominating trunk this broom has been ditched for now in favour of just 1 trunk and either an informal upright in a few years, or totally trying the broom again with a 2-3 inch trunk.
The other tree, without the clamp with its bulges, will be my shohin or similar broom. I plan to grow this out for another year then do the broom thing. Lots of learning, and I will update when there’s more to show 1-2 years time.
Charles

 

[sorce]

of chunky stalks,

Full circle there! Oooooh! Thanks Brian! Lol!

@Vinnie Charity. That old cut part still grows too....only a little....but it grows. Thats a small part of why not leave it.

Some trees/branches thicken more with more cutbacks....its counterintuitive, but trees don't know what that means!

@KiwiPlantGuy. Looking good sir!

Sorce

 

[Vinnie Charity]

Good to know @sorce, so maybe I'll cut them off at the end of the growing season. I'm willing to take as much time as needed to grow this into a great broom style tree, I just want to make sure none of that time is wasted if you know what I mean.

I'f I need to cut, I will cut. If I need to let the tree grow freely, I will let it grow.

As always, advice is always appreciated...

 

[Tentakelaertje]

Hi,
Thank you for your comments. I was wondering about leaving these alone for another season, in confusion land really.
As for the roots, not too bad I remember but will need flat box and/or ground layer soon I guess?
Charles

Hiya, sorry for the late reply mate! Looks like you've got some nice advices, please keep us updated on how you decide!
Ps. Better to start off earlier sooner than later with root work!

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi BubblePopScott,
The concept of the drilled hole (remove internal heartwood) is that when the tree gets growing and the sub-trunks start to thicken (gain girth) the tree can’t swell outward re the clamp so swells inwards. This I believe creates a clean trunk line from main trunk to the secondary trunks and so on.
Hope that explains things better,
Charles

Hi all,
Just a small point regarding the heartwood DRILLED out. I was too nervous to drill out too much. I believe not drilling out enough has been one reason why I have had swelling outwards on my better of 2 brooms.
My other analysis is that maybe I didn’t secure the clamp up high enough to cope with the sub-trunk swelling and callusing.
The swelling of sub-trunk girth is supposed to go inwards, oh well, learning curve ?

 

[leatherback]

Why not just let them grow freely until they get close to the desired thickness, THEN cut back for ramification?

For me there would be a tradeoff between speed (Let it grooooooww), cutmark size (big brach = big cut = scarring) and transition smoothness (More repreated cuts = smoother taper).

 

[jonathanvperth]

[EDIT] As much as I am open to critical commentary, I see no reason to let this post remain on the site. - BNut [/EDIT]

 

[leatherback]

wtf?

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

You serious man +1 WTF
Trolling is the best you can do here on Bnut.
Piss off ?

 

[BubblePopScott]

Hi Charles, how's this tree doing now?

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi Charles, how's this tree doing now?

Hi,
Um, I have been a bit lazy regarding photos of my trees in general so these ones on this thread have been growing well. I have kept both, as to practice more. About time to wire the new leaders and get some movement as nothing so far.
I will post a photo in the next week or so, and might get to it tomorrow if it stops raining.
Thank you for reminding me lol,
Charles

 

[BubblePopScott]

Looking forward to the update

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Small update.
I haven’t wired either of the two trees yet. By the photos I should give it a try as they need some attention.
3 photos below are the 2 brooms from the start, one was trying to be sold off but didn’t sell, so I planted in the garden for 6 months and it grew mega fast and put on some girth. The main transition from trunk to mini trunks is a bit clunky on both, but for first time efforts, all good. The fatter girth broom had its roots cut back so it is a bit slower this Spring.

So there is 3 sub trunks on both.
I am hoping for comments/advice from @Adair M , @Brian Van Fleet, or others as to how to progress.
My thoughts are to now wire some movement, then after a few or more weeks unwire and cut back. Am I on the right track?
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

One year later, and one of these is in a bonsai pot for practice to learn how to grow etc. Not planted straight, but that can be sorted out next repot.


The second one with the thicker sub trunks I have left in the grow box. It seems to look a little clunky/awkward, but I will leave it up to the viewer to tell me your thoughts/opinions.

Charles