Kilns - I have a ? about electric kilns

[Japonicus]

I have the opportunity to get an electric Kiln linked here for sale

Thread 'Paragon Touch n Fire Kiln for sale-pick up only'

Oct 1, 2024

$350 OBO Local pick up only.
I just learned today my wifes sister, is selling her kiln.
It has been used for home ceramics/decorations.

There is local interest on FB for this item, but I asked if I could offer it up
to the community here in hopes that it could be put to use for bonsai instead.
I'm unsure how long the offer will be good, so please inquire rapidly
if there is any interest. I know nothing about the unit other than, it is in good working order.
The unit is ~45 minutes from my home, so I can request other info or pictures if necessary.
I'm unsure if it is the model number...

• Japonicus
• Replies: 12
• Forum: Other selling (bonsai related)

• 
• 

My sis in-law who has this, said it has to be kept wrapped, out in their garage, or it will
disintegrate. Is this true, and I'm assuming it is the oven liner/brick that she is referring to?

How long a pot can be fired in a octagon kiln with a 16.5 inch opening...15 maybe?

 

[NaoTK]

Maybe she means the heating elements. In any case, just keep it dry and it should not disintegrate. The heating elements and thermocouple will corrode over time with normal use.

If you do not already have the right size breaker and outlet, just getting those installed can make a budget kiln very expensive. And you will want to vent the kiln to the outside.

Remember 15" would be before firing, so that makes it a ~13" pot after firing.

 

[Japonicus]

Maybe she means the heating elements. In any case, just keep it dry and it should not disintegrate. The heating elements and thermocouple will corrode over time with normal use.

If you do not already have the right size breaker and outlet, just getting those installed can make a budget kiln very expensive. And you will want to vent the kiln to the outside.

Remember 15" would be before firing, so that makes it a ~13" pot after firing.

Thank you Nao.
Humidity in our shed will easily reach 80% overnight probably higher. Wrapping it will not be all that effective.

Is keeping it in our shed ok or should I sell it? We got a $400 offer for it overnight locally.

I have 220 outlets in my shed and a breaker box.
Hopefully all I need is her outlet to match the plug and a 50 or 60 amp breaker.

Good to know the shrinkage detail. I knew of it, but didn't think it would be that much, wow!

 

[penumbra]

Humidity in our shed will easily reach 80% overnight probably higher. Wrapping it will not be all that effective.

I installed and repaired / rebuilt kilns for 12 years, and I learned that you Never wrap a kiln. When it was necessary to cover a kiln we always used a canvas tarp so the kiln could breath. Even for a few of our customers who had kilns outside under an open roof, only a canvas tarp. The down side to operating a kiln in very high humidity is the controller itself. They just don't last as long.

Good to know the shrinkage detail. I knew of it, but didn't think it would be that much, wow!

This was not a reference to shrinkage, but an estimate of usable space. I have one kiln with a 16 inch opening and 13 inches is a very tight fit. You don't want the piece to ever come in contact with the walls of the kiln and you have to make allowances for shelf posts. Only the top shelf can take full advantage of the space. Shrinkage typically is 10 to 13%.

 

[Japonicus]

I installed and repaired / rebuilt kilns for 12 years, and I learned that you Never wrap a kiln. When it was necessary to cover a kiln we always used a canvas tarp so the kiln could breath. Even for a few of our customers who had kilns outside under an open roof, only a canvas tarp. The down side to operating a kiln in very high humidity is the controller itself. They just don't last as long.

This was not a reference to shrinkage, but an estimate of usable space. I have one kiln with a 16 inch opening and 13 inches is a very tight fit. You don't want the piece to ever come in contact with the walls of the kiln and you have to make allowances for shelf posts. Only the top shelf can take full advantage of the space. Shrinkage typically is 10 to 13%.

Ok that was my next point actually, wrapping it cannot keep humidity out, but it can trap it in.
It is possible then, that this kiln in non functional, or has a short usable life left in the heating elements and controller.

 

[Bob Hunter]

If you need a 60 amp breaker you might need a heaver copper wire to the kiln and distance from the main panel has a lot to do with it.

What wire size is used to connect a kiln? | Hot Kilns

Basics When you are installing the circuit for your new kiln, it is important to use the correct type and thickness of wire. The recommendations provided for each model and voltage variation in the kiln electrical specifications are a good first start. They are a minimum wire gauge to use when...

hotkilns.com

 

[Japonicus]

If you need a 60 amp breaker you might need a heaver copper wire to the kiln and distance from the main panel has a lot to do with it.

What wire size is used to connect a kiln? | Hot Kilns

Basics When you are installing the circuit for your new kiln, it is important to use the correct type and thickness of wire. The recommendations provided for each model and voltage variation in the kiln electrical specifications are a good first start. They are a minimum wire gauge to use when...

hotkilns.com

Thanks for posting the link here Bob
It already has a cord and plug, but if I need longer, I have a length I bought to connect my generator to the house
that I never used.
As for the breaker/fuse I was just on the Paragon website which shows this unit draw at 30 amps.
However this unit is from the mid 90's I think, and her pics showed 50 amps at one locale
(can't recall off hand for what exactly the 50 amp was designated for).

I left voicemail with Paragon about replacing the controller and heating element.

The Genesis controller looks super. It is not linkable from YouTube but is found on the units' page here...

TNF-82-3 8-Sided Ceramic and Pottery Kiln

Paragon TNF-82-3 China Painting Crystalline Glazes Dolls Low-Fire Ceramics Porcelain Stoneware Digital Automatic. Paragon Industries TNF823. Serious hobbyist

www.paragonkilns.com

It comes with the DTC 600C controller, but I don't know anything about firing ceramics really.
The Genesis just looks super easy to program ramp up and down and cone selection 1-10.
Looks to be superior to the controller currently on the unit.

 

[Japonicus]

Where can I find classes pertinent to this end of the hobby?
We have a pottery class at the Huntington Museum of art, but is for pottery wheel, and small time general pieces. Fall class is sold out then there's another in the Spring. Only the instructor runs the kiln and is not geared towards firing in the class, rather articulating a piece for them to fire.

 

[hampton]

I’ve spent a lot of time diving down this rabbit hole. I picked up and installed a Skutt 1027 240v 1 phase this past spring. Only thing left to do is install vent fans and test fire, just got caught up with some other stuff.

If you have easy access to a panel that the free amperage and the elements check out I think it’s worth messing around with.

 

[Pitoon]

There's a lot more to electricity than just casually adding a 50 or 60 Amp breaker and 6-50R or 15-60R receptacle. Triple check that your copper wire can support the load. Using an undergauge copper wire can overheat or melt....worse catch on fire.

 

[Japonicus]

I’ve spent a lot of time diving down this rabbit hole. I picked up and installed a Skutt 1027 240v 1 phase this past spring. Only thing left to do is install vent fans and test fire, just got caught up with some other stuff.

If you have easy access to a panel that the free amperage and the elements check out I think it’s worth messing around with.

Good to know. Hope it works out good for you.
Vent fans for this unit are around $600.

There's a lot more to electricity than just casually adding a 50 or 60 Amp breaker and 6-50R or 15-60R receptacle. Triple check that your copper wire can support the load. Using an undergauge copper wire can overheat or melt....worse catch on fire.

Hi Pitoon! Glad to see you post here....

I'm now pretty sure the kiln is rated at 30A draw. This 10/3 wire is rated 30-35A.
Do you think this extra run of wire I have will be enough?
It will basically be an extension cord running from the breaker box.

I ran my 1st 2 receptacles in my shed to include 220, but only used 14/2 wire for a shaper and a drill press.

AEP is sending a tech to assess if I need to upgrade my service or not. Don't know why they can't tell me how many amp service typical residential service is.

 

[mrcasey]

Where can I find classes pertinent to this end of the hobby?

By "this end of the hobby", do you mean kiln construction, maintenance, and repair? Or do you mean constructing and firing traditional bonsai pots?

 

[Japonicus]

By "this end of the hobby", do you mean kiln construction, maintenance, and repair? Or do you mean constructing and firing traditional bonsai pots?

Constructing and firing pots in a kiln and general kiln usage.

As to the amperage...here's the plug and diagram.
6-50R.




Paragons site specs 30A




But i don't know the volts.

 

[mrcasey]

I realize that you're interested in having your own kiln, but there are a couple of us in Parkersburg who work at a community ceramics studio and we make bonsai pots. We use an electric kiln and fire to cone 6. Our ramping and cooling schedule are fairly standard. I understand that you're in western WV, but it sounds like you might be close to Huntington so it would be quite a drive... To join the studio, one has to take a class, but after that, I'm sure that I and the other guy would be happy to share our methods and perspectives. I throw and slab build. He throws, hand builds, and uses an extruder. If you have any questions about our studio, fees, and operations, I'd be happy to answer.

 

[Colorado]

Where can I find classes pertinent to this end of the hobby?
We have a pottery class at the Huntington Museum of art, but is for pottery wheel, and small time general pieces. Fall class is sold out then there's another in the Spring. Only the instructor runs the kiln and is not geared towards firing in the class, rather articulating a piece for them to fire.

Honestly I think you are better off just getting some clay and trying it yourself. It’s such a long process to make a pot (throwing/building, drying time, trimming, more drying, etc etc) that I can’t see how you would really be able to do much in a short class. I guess you could learn to throw in a class, but there’s much more to do after throwing it.

Just my 2 cents anyway. Have fun! Pottery is awesome

 

[NaoTK]

I'm not an electrician but you may be heading for trouble if you are using 30A wire on a 50A breaker. Yes the kiln will run but if there is a problem your wire will heat up before the breaker pops. So my kiln has 60A breaker+ wire (8 gauge? look it up)
If you are running your kiln in a shed, there should be a separate grounded breaker box with shut off for the shed.
If the run from your main breaker box to the shed is very long, you will get voltage drop. The kiln may be underpowered and you may get issues reaching peak temp.

 

[Japonicus]

I realize that you're interested in having your own kiln, but there are a couple of us in Parkersburg who work at a community ceramics studio and we make bonsai pots. We use an electric kiln and fire to cone 6. Our ramping and cooling schedule are fairly standard. I understand that you're in western WV, but it sounds like you might be close to Huntington so it would be quite a drive... To join the studio, one has to take a class, but after that, I'm sure that I and the other guy would be happy to share our methods and perspectives. I throw and slab build. He throws, hand builds, and uses an extruder. If you have any questions about our studio, fees, and operations, I'd be happy to answer.

Thank you for the info. 261 zip codes aren't too far.
I am most interested in making oval and rectangle pots as large as this kiln will handle.
I have a new shed being built atm, and will be running water and electricity under ground to it as well as buying and installing a wood stove. So I'll be pretty tied up the rest of the year.
I will keep you in mind and holler at you to coordinate a schedule. Thank you.
BTW, about how many hours would a cone 6 cycle take?
I don't like thin pots, not sure if thickness of clay matters here.

I'm not an electrician but you may be heading for trouble if you are using 30A wire on a 50A breaker. Yes the kiln will run but if there is a problem your wire will heat up before the breaker pops. So my kiln has 60A breaker+ wire (8 gauge? look it up)
If you are running your kiln in a shed, there should be a separate grounded breaker box with shut off for the shed.
If the run from your main breaker box to the shed is very long, you will get voltage drop. The kiln may be underpowered and you may get issues reaching peak temp.

Hi Nao
Good thought on the circuit size and run.
Given the plug schematic above, is there any reason a 30A circuit breaker wouldn't be proper if the kiln is specd at 30A, or should I have the next size up breaker?
Don't know if this is a 208 or 240V kiln. How important is this?

For your 60A circuit I'm reading a minimum of 6AWG.
Also reading in charts that this wire I have at 90°C insulation carries up to 40A which seems perfect for the short length of run I'll have.
The shed is next to my service pole and meter. I may be able to touch the service breaker box on the pole (where I access power) and the breaker box in the shed at the same time. So voltage drop should be minimal.

 

[Japonicus]

Honestly I think you are better off just getting some clay and trying it yourself. It’s such a long process to make a pot (throwing/building, drying time, trimming, more drying, etc etc) that I can’t see how you would really be able to do much in a short class. I guess you could learn to throw in a class, but there’s much more to do after throwing it.

Just my 2 cents anyway. Have fun! Pottery is awesome

Yes the timings involved are daunting. I'd be happy to sell enough pots to recoup costs involved to setup and get operational. As long as I don't have to buy venting and a new controller I should be ok. She said she only fired it 20-30 times.

 

[mrcasey]

From closing the lid to opening it at 130F, it takes about 42 hours.

 

[Japonicus]

From closing the lid to opening it at 130F, it takes about 42 hours.

Wow
Thst IS a lot of electricity.
What if the power goes out during use? Be it a moment, minute or longer?