Jumping off the deep end...

[rockm]

I don't get people saying not to grow from seeds. Even old-timers might enjoy knowing their seedlings might be something one day, long after they themselves have moved on to the next realm.

This is the best advice I got:

Growing from seeds can give the grower a great education on that type of tree, not to mention emotional connections that keep us going. If a tree (and us) survive long enough, we'll have complete control over it's development. I've seen people on here have great success growing large numbers of trees from seeds. They might get satisfaction from trading, selling, or giving them away.

BUT, you also want to have some trees in varying stages of development so you aren't ONLY growing from seeds.

I think it's good to grow from seeds, cuttings, layers, work pre-bonsai stock, and also maybe get some actual bonsai to maintain and improve upon. The more stages of development you can work with, the greater your knowledge and experience.

I'm not saying don't grow from seeds. They can be a part of bonsai work, but using them exclusively isn't really bonsai.

What I'm saying is that expecting them to bear any kind of useful result for bonsai is not really jumping into the deep end for developing bonsai. It's mostly delaying bonsai for a decade or more.

Jumping in the deep end, to me anyway, would be to actually work on a collected tree that can actually become a bonsai in ten years. Utah juniper is easily available from a number of collectors if you look. It, like most good collected trees, can be pricey. You can probably find a decent piece of collected stock for $300 if you look around or confer with a collector

http://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/whatever-pg-4.html

YAMADORI — High Desert Bonsai

www.highdesertbonsai.com

I jumped into that deep end two decades ago with the oak and a few other collected trees. They forced me to learn a lot in a little time. Sink or swim.

 

[huntergc]

All very good points, and I can see the sense in them if you were doing a juniper bonsai because you love bonsai. All of your input is things I will keep in mind…

I am looking into bonsai BECAUSE of this tree. I know that realistically I will never see this tree in it’s full glory. I have a very good understanding of the fact that when I die, it will still be very much so an infant, and I am ok with that. It is part of the magic of the place I love. I am temporary on a much larger time scale than I could ever try to comprehend. My hope is that bonsai will give me the best tools to care for THIS tiny tree as it grows. If I fall in love with bonsai as an art instead of a tool, then I might go dig up one that has been shaped by the environment. If the trees I got to know in their native environment are any point of reference (lots of other details there) my great great grandchildren might see this tree.

 

[rockm]

All very good points, and I can see the sense in them if you were doing a juniper bonsai because you love bonsai. All of your input is things I will keep in mind…

I am looking into bonsai BECAUSE of this tree. I know that realistically I will never see this tree in it’s full glory. I have a very good understanding of the fact that when I die, it will still be very much so an infant, and I am ok with that. It is part of the magic of the place I love. I am temporary on a much larger time scale than I could ever try to comprehend. My hope is that bonsai will give me the best tools to care for THIS tiny tree as it grows. If I fall in love with bonsai as an art instead of a tool, then I might go dig up one that has been shaped by the environment. If the trees I got to know in their native environment are any point of reference (lots of other details there) my great great grandchildren might see this tree.

"It is part of the magic of the place I love"

Well, see that's exactly what I'm talking about. What you're growing WILL NOT BE A PART OF THAT PLACE. They will be a part of your backyard. A collected tree WILL be part of the place that produced it forever. Nature leaves an indelible mark--which is why collected trees have always been a revered source for bonsai material. What you will produce from seeds will be, well, hardly as inspiring.

Bonsai will not "give" you the tools if you're not actually DOING bonsai. If you want to learn, DO bonsai. Get an actual ESTABLISHED trees and WORK IT. You will learn nothing from seedlings...

Also FWIW, unless you sell or give your tree away to another bonsai-ist, or plant it back in the ground, it will be unlikely it will outlive you on a longer time scale. Many bonsai-ists have a fantasy their trees will go on and on and on after they die. Mostly, it ain't true. A minority of those trees are sold off (if they're good and the owner's survivors have forethought). Most languish and die. If you want a tree to outlive you, a decent tree started from old collected stock is much more likely to do that. It's a better buy on resale and will remain so, while those seed grown trees won't be in the same league for a century or more, if at all.

 

[Joe Dupre']

To some, it's the destination. To others it's the journey. One of the founders of our local club passed away early this year at 90. He was still planting seeds and establishing cuttings because it gave him pleasure.

 

[ShadyStump]

I appreciate @rockm's input every time, even when we disagree on matters of opinion. On matters of fact, he will not lead you astray. That includes the times he's cautioned against the very same impossible experiments I've made a habit of encouraging.
And he never takes our willful ignorance personally.

He's right.
His suggestions just don't match the OP's desires and expectations here, even if they're a little, "out there."
That's all.

 

[SeanS]

from the net

View attachment 408402

That one belongs to @Shibui

 

[hinmo24t]

That one belongs to @Shibui

haha, small world. i read the article it was from about clip and grow and wiring! thought those little trees looked awesome

@Shibui do you still have those?

 

[NamesakE]

"It is part of the magic of the place I love"

Well, see that's exactly what I'm talking about. What you're growing WILL NOT BE A PART OF THAT PLACE. They will be a part of your backyard. A collected tree WILL be part of the place that produced it forever. Nature leaves an indelible mark--which is why collected trees have always been a revered source for bonsai material. What you will produce from seeds will be, well, hardly as inspiring.

Bonsai will not "give" you the tools if you're not actually DOING bonsai. If you want to learn, DO bonsai. Get an actual ESTABLISHED trees and WORK IT. You will learn nothing from seedlings...

Also FWIW, unless you sell or give your tree away to another bonsai-ist, or plant it back in the ground, it will be unlikely it will outlive you on a longer time scale. Many bonsai-ists have a fantasy their trees will go on and on and on after they die. Mostly, it ain't true. A minority of those trees are sold off (if they're good and the owner's survivors have forethought). Most languish and die. If you want a tree to outlive you, a decent tree started from old collected stock is much more likely to do that. It's a better buy on resale and will remain so, while those seed grown trees won't be in the same league for a century or more, if at all.

This. Exactly this.

 

[penumbra]

Different stokes there are.... always will be.

 

[ShadyStump]

Back to the OP...
Been reading up on juniper propagation recently. (Couple of BIG Rocky Mountain junipers on the border with my neighbor, and I always wanted to try my hand at those.)
Apparently growing from seed is notoriously hit or miss because they only pollinate by wind, and the cold stratification times can vary widely, and germination rates and times as well.
So I guess don't be afraid to forget about those seeds in the fridge until spring, and once you plant them, be patient and diligent.

I guess cuttings are the way to go generally, but the cool part there is the cuttings will retain the characteristics of the parent branch, not just the tree as a whole.

If your seeds don't work out, PM me. I occasionally find opportunity to travel around the state for work. I'll keep an eye out for anything near Four Corners. Otherwise, I'm always looking for new places to go camping, and I haven't been in that corner of Colorado for years.

 

[huntergc]

Also FWIW, unless you sell or give your tree away to another bonsai-ist, or plant it back in the ground, it will be unlikely it will outlive you on a longer time scale.

Sorry for the late response….
I actually thought about this, and my current plan (considering I am young and very shallow in the bonsai world) is to put them back in the ground when it’s time… But who knows, I’m young and just beginning my bonsai journey

 

[huntergc]

Here we are, mid March. Still no signs of life in the fridge….

Humor me here: is it better to leave them in the fridge until signs of life appear or put the seeds in some soil, keep at a vaguely warmer than fridge temperature? If so, what temperature range is ideal? I currently have easy access to anything 50-75+

I only ask because of my experience with other interesting non-bonsai plants, but I understand that bonsai can often be very different than “normal”

 

[huntergc]

Back to the OP...
Been reading up on juniper propagation recently. (Couple of BIG Rocky Mountain junipers on the border with my neighbor, and I always wanted to try my hand at those.)
Apparently growing from seed is notoriously hit or miss because they only pollinate by wind, and the cold stratification times can vary widely, and germination rates and times as well.
So I guess don't be afraid to forget about those seeds in the fridge until spring, and once you plant them, be patient and diligent.

I guess cuttings are the way to go generally, but the cool part there is the cuttings will retain the characteristics of the parent branch, not just the tree as a whole.

If your seeds don't work out, PM me. I occasionally find opportunity to travel around the state for work. I'll keep an eye out for anything near Four Corners. Otherwise, I'm always looking for new places to go camping, and I haven't been in that corner of Colorado for years.

Whether it’s a good or bad thing, I can often be found at the corner of stubborn and stupid….

They can sit in some forlorn corner of my farm or in my fridge for as long as they take (assuming they actually are viable, but I’ll start thinking about that possibility three or so years from now).

Maybe at some point in the near future I’ll be out there again with proper timing to collect some and pack them out… I think that’s probably a better strategy for the places these trees represents to me. I’ve also never had luck getting things to air root or root from cuttings

 

[Wulfskaar]

Here we are, mid March. Still no signs of life in the fridge….

Humor me here: is it better to leave them in the fridge until signs of life appear or put the seeds in some soil, keep at a vaguely warmer than fridge temperature? If so, what temperature range is ideal? I currently have easy access to anything 50-75+

I only ask because of my experience with other interesting non-bonsai plants, but I understand that bonsai can often be very different than “normal”

I think you should take them out after the specified amount of time and plant them. Don't leave them in forever. Most seeds that need cold stratification, that I've encountered, are said to need 2 or 3 months, depending on the seed.

I'm only on my 2nd year of growing from seeds, so I'm no pro, but I've had decent success getting them to germinate.

It will take many years until they are bonsai-ready, but I am really enjoying the whole process. I'm not looking to enter any bonsai contests any time soon and I doubt you are either.

As far as the sentimental value, I am totally with you. I have taken seeds from particular places and those hold an extra special place in my heart. Does it matter to anyone else? No. But it matters to me. If a tree has any amount of sentimental value, you're more likely to take care of it better. I think your story is cool!

 

[ShadyStump]

Here we are, mid March. Still no signs of life in the fridge….

Humor me here: is it better to leave them in the fridge until signs of life appear or put the seeds in some soil, keep at a vaguely warmer than fridge temperature? If so, what temperature range is ideal? I currently have easy access to anything 50-75+

I only ask because of my experience with other interesting non-bonsai plants, but I understand that bonsai can often be very different than “normal”

90 days ought to be about right for Utah juniper it seems. They rarely get that many hours in much of their native range.
I would pull them and set them in your warmer spot, whatever it is, to germinate.

You work in the field, so you probably know better than most of us where to find the horticulture on these if it exists, but I haven't come across much.

 

[Esolin]

I wish you luck. Juniper seeds germinate very slowly. Some species even take a year or two after planting. Try to find research on germination Utah juniper seeds from an .edu source where they've run calculated experiments on best methods to improve your chances and so you'll know what to expect. Such as:

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1845&context=extensionhist

 

[19Mateo83]

Good to know!
Coming from my background, we try to baby things in pots over the winter (the extreme cold "snaps" in the early season that can harm the root balls in the pots because they are not ready for it and aren't protected by the mass of the ground, before they have a chance to prepare and the frost has sunk into the ground- if that makes sense). As an example, this fall has been super long and warm where I am, we just went from nights in the low 40's fahrenheit to a night of 24.... Bonsai seems to be very different from a lot of things I know, which is sort of the point of this post. Imagine, in my day job as an arborist, it is a huge deal to take the apical meristem off, and the structures that are being created would NEVER survive. To sum up my very shallow knowledge at this point, if it would kill a regular tree, it might actually be a good idea for a bonsai, obviously taken to an extreme.

An outside tree seems like it would be best. Do you have any advice on using greenhouses (unheated right now, propane to heat them is expensive and not worth it unless we are starting plants in the spring and have massive volume)? As in, for these cold "snaps" could you move it into the unheated greenhouse to take the worst of the cold shock away while still allowing it to preform all it's fall duties? Or would you just let it tough it out because that is what they do? If you were to make an outside environment, how would you deal with the excess moisture and lack of light, especially in the winter (a desert plant growing in Michigan)?

You can try using thermal mass (55gal barrels filled with water) to help buffer the cold snaps in a greenhouse. not sure how well it will work long term though.

 

[roberthu]

I would sow the seeds in your back yard and wait for them to germinate. Keep an eye on them and remove weeds as you see them. Starting from seed is slow but can be fun and rewarding too. I think it’s a great way to learn the species and build up your knowledge base and understanding of bonsai. My opinion is always this: bonsai is more about growing than designing.

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Remove all the pulp, scarification with acid to imitate the passage through the stomach of birds is usually the best method, also a cold stratification about couple of months seems to speed a lot the germination

 

[Joe Dupre']

My buddy from down the street started bonsai semi-seriously in college. He's 56 now. I told him that if he would have planted seeds from almost any tree in the world, he could have a world class bonsai by now.

Life happens while you're waiting to figure out what you want to do with your life.