Jumping off the deep end...

[huntergc]

Hi, do you want the short story of the long story?

Long story short:
As someone who has knowledge as a gardener and full sized arborist, but knows absolutely nothing about bonsai... Crash course in taken some very special to me juniper seeds I gathered from an ancient specimen on a cliff in south western Colorado, getting them to germinate, and then keeping them in my home. How do I go about this? What are the tools and resources that can guide me? Websites, youtube channels, books? Do's, don'ts, things you wish you knew before.

Short story long:
Two years ago I moved to Michigan to start an organic farm. I left my home in southwestern Colorado, about thirty minutes from the Utah boarder. And I miss it dearly. This fall I was able to get away and go visit. I went wandering in the desert, among the juniper and pinion and sage and sandstone. Up on a rock ledge, overlooking the yellow cottonwoods in the canyon, and the snow capped mountains in the distance, was an absolutely massive Ancient One. Twisted and gnarled, growing out of a crack with roots jumping and tumbling down the slope after the flow of water. Worn and weathered gray woods with streaks of bright fiery orange. Large enough you cannot wrap your arms around it's trunk. And I brought back some seeds. 22 in all, and I am beginning to realize that maybe I should have borrowed some more, but it is what I have and I do not need a garden of bonsai (although I wouldn't say no), I just want a special piece of home. I am a gardener and arborist by training and profession, but am absolutely out of my depth when it comes to bonsai... But I also am someone who tends to jump right off the deep end, so here we go. How do I go from a handful of seeds and absolute zero to one or two bonsai junipers? How do I need to stratify and scarify the seeds for success (we have left the great hour glass of the desert and now only have two hands and regular tools to be the wind, water, rock, and sand)? Once they have germinated (if), what resources would you recommend for caring for them? Tools, books, forum pages, youtube channels? What are the do's and don't, and I promise, no information you can give me is too basic? What do you wish you have know before you started? What painful lessons have you learned along the way you would be willing to spare me from?

Thank you in advance!

 

[PaulH]

It is a very common newbie perception that bonsai are started from seed. It does happen but is not the norm and may take 20 years plus before you are at the pre bonsai stage. Native juniper bonsai are started by collecting mature plants (with permission) and training them as bonsai.

 

[ShadyStump]

That's your basic intro to how complicated bonsai can be, and the best way to cut corners.

First, Utah or one seed?
They're practically the same, but then if they were the same they wouldn't be different, now would they?

Stratification: separate the berries from the seeds. Scarify then fold the seeds into lightly but evenly damp paper towels, black in a sealed ziplock bag, label and date, them and drop them in the bottom of the fridge to be forgotten for at least 2 months. Place berries in marinade for game meat.
If the berries have one seed each guess which tree it is. If more than one seed, it's Utah juniper. They are tiny seeds once separated from the berry meat, so it may help to dry the berries first so they crumble away from the seeds under sufficient pressure. Not actually tried that, but it makes sense in my head.

Scarification: there is debate as to whether this actually helps in some species, but if you're going to try it I suggest setting the seeds on a sheet of fine grain sand paper, placing another sheet on top, and giving them a few good rubs. The idea is to thin the shells just enough for the sprouts to break through more easily.

Planting: you're familiar with their native habitat, so easy on the water, but never let the soil dry out completely. Small cups (holes in the bottom for drainage) or starter pots of fine mulch or peat.
Plant once you see a couple of the seeds pushing sprouts when you finally remember to check them. Update us in January-ish when you see that. Generally, your standard seed sprouting techniques will apply.

They love sun ALLOT, but might not make the sorts of winters Michigan can have. South facing outdoor location, but protect during winter. If you're farming now days, I imagine you can throw together a lean-to cold frame on the side of the house, and get some seeds started. Trees can often take much longer to sprout than vegetables, so be patient.
The obvious and obligatory warning: trees don't like living rooms as a general rule. These especially will live their whole lives outside (I say while planning my own indoor juniper experiment, but mine isn't THIS juniper).

Next time you come home, hit me up. It's always nice to find another non-Denver Coloradan on here. Not like that stuffy @Colorado who, quite frankly, is much more experienced than I am.
And actually a pretty cool guy.

 

[huntergc]

It is a very common newbie perception that bonsai are started from seed. It does happen but is not the norm and may take 20 years plus before you are at the pre bonsai stage. Native juniper bonsai are started by collecting mature plants (with permission) and training them as bonsai.

I've found that out as I work my way through various threads... oh well, maybe next tie I go I can coordinate the permits and figure out how to get them 1,700 miles across the country, but that is a thread for a different time.
The point of this particular endeavor is THIS particular parent and it's meaning and specialness to me. Not for having a bonsai or competing, or growing and training (although that is a rabbit hole I am teetering on the edge of), but just a piece of home here.

 

[Joe Dupre']

My only contribution would be this.......The next 20 years will pass whether you plant the seeds or not. You'll be glad you planted them, I'll bet.

 

[_#1_]

I am a gardener and arborist by training and profession, but am absolutely out of my depth when it comes to bonsai...

First you need to research what defines a bonsai. Once you have the answer you'll know what to do. You have a green thumb after all

getting them to germinate, and then keeping them in my home

Keeping them IN the home? Or keeping them AT the house? There's a world of difference.

Oh and welcome aboard. If you stay long enough you might learn a thing or two, or more

 

[huntergc]

That's your basic intro to how complicated bonsai can be, and the best way to cut corners.

First, Utah or one seed?
They're practically the same, but then if they were the same they wouldn't be different, now would they?

Stratification: separate the berries from the seeds. Scarify then fold the seeds into lightly but evenly damp paper towels, black in a sealed ziplock bag, label and date, them and drop them in the bottom of the fridge to be forgotten for at least 2 months. Place berries in marinade for game meat.
If the berries have one seed each guess which tree it is. If more than one seed, it's Utah juniper. They are tiny seeds once separated from the berry meat, so it may help to dry the berries first so they crumble away from the seeds under sufficient pressure. Not actually tried that, but it makes sense in my head.

Scarification: there is debate as to whether this actually helps in some species, but if you're going to try it I suggest setting the seeds on a sheet of fine grain sand paper, placing another sheet on top, and giving them a few good rubs. The idea is to thin the shells just enough for the sprouts to break through more easily.

Planting: you're familiar with their native habitat, so easy on the water, but never let the soil dry out completely. Small cups (holes in the bottom for drainage) or starter pots of fine mulch or peat.
Plant once you see a couple of the seeds pushing sprouts when you finally remember to check them. Update us in January-ish when you see that. Generally, your standard seed sprouting techniques will apply.

They love sun ALLOT, but might not make the sorts of winters Michigan can have. South facing outdoor location, but protect during winter. If you're farming now days, I imagine you can throw together a lean-to cold frame on the side of the house, and get some seeds started. Trees can often take much longer to sprout than vegetables, so be patient.
The obvious and obligatory warning: trees don't like living rooms as a general rule. These especially will live their whole lives outside (I say while planning my own indoor juniper experiment, but mine isn't THIS juniper).

Next time you come home, hit me up. It's always nice to find another non-Denver Coloradan on here. Not like that stuffy @Colorado who, quite frankly, is much more experienced than I am.
And actually a pretty cool guy.

Thank you!!!

I know my area of Colorado has both Utah and Rocky Mountain junipers, I'm thinking this friend is a Utah juniper, but there was definitely only ONE seed per berry/cone....

Berry flesh came off pretty easily, like a less messy free-stone apricot. Might scarify half tomorrow just to see if I notice any differences. Currently sitting in my fridge, and now I am just left to wait... Really picked a good project to practice patience with

Comparing the two climates, the largest issue I think will be (excess) moisture and sun. Can a juniper die because of too much humidity? If it's home is regularly in the single digits of humidity? The mother tree would have experience some low temps (low double digits), but not quite as cold as Michigan. And damp cold, that is just insulting! But when you look at the record low temps that the mother tree absolutely experience, Colorado is lower than Michigan. Interesting side note, my places in Colorado and Michigan are the same grow zone, although number of growing days were much shorter in Colorado, elevation 7,200+. But not something I'd be willing to test with THIS tree. Although being a farmer, I do have all sorts of fun tools at my disposal, like greenhouses and grow lights and bulk supplies.

You're telling me that THIS tree, my huge mother native tree, with massive tap roots, and other roots that bound downhill and follows cracks and water for 200 feet... It's children might not be a good indoor plants? I worked as a landscaper for ten years starting when I was 12 and it's the same vein of humor and logic as telling people their lawns and gardens needed water and would not be very happy if they went on vacation for a month and turned the irrigation off in the 90-100 degree range. Oh well, I'm hoping that with the slow growth of the tree in general plus bonsai type pruning I can keep it manageable. Worst case scenario, it can have a greenhouse to itself (joking, maybe...)

Where in Colorado are you? I have to say, I moved because I like growing things and it's gotten really hard with the drought, but my soul will forever belong to the southwest. I'll be back, I have to desiccate the mold growing between my toes!

 

[huntergc]

My only contribution would be this.......The next 20 years will pass whether you plant the seeds or not. You'll be glad you planted them, I'll bet.

Exactly! It will pass no matter what. I have the time, I have the space, and it has enough meaning to me

 

[ShadyStump]

I promise this tree will not like living in the house.Unless, of course you can build a hyper controled ultra bright grow room just for it. LOL

The humidity could become an issue, but that often shows up as fungal infections. You may find yourself treating them with fungicides routinely, but as long as they have a decently sunny dry spot to live, they should generally do alright. Once they're going strong, a well draining soil is a must. Stick around and you'll learn ALL about the ludacrous amounts of soil advice people have to give.
And I agree: cold is one thing, wet is another, both could be a problem. Just remember that they'll need a solid dormancy period every winter to be healthy, so don't just throw it in a heated greenhouse to stay warm. Cool and well ventilated for the winter.

I'm on the southern Front Range in Canon City. Somehow I haven't gotten around to collecting any of the one seed junipers here. Keep getting sidetracked by pinions I think. Now, if you want to talk rabbit holes, pinions, yeesh! LOL

 

[ShadyStump]

Oh, and a tip for future questions: add your location and/or USDA zone to your profile. It'll let us skip the part we have to ask where you are every time.

 

[Potawatomi13]

then keeping them in my home.

You do not do this! Juniper needs Sunshine/outdoor air for optimum health, what is needed to grow bigger robust tree from seed or sprout. Do not expect indoor survival. 100% understand desire to grow from special tree. Never forget this. Best of fortune.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I've found that out as I work my way through various threads... oh well, maybe next tie I go I can coordinate the permits and figure out how to get them 1,700 miles across the country, but that is a thread for a different time.
The point of this particular endeavor is THIS particular parent and it's meaning and specialness to me. Not for having a bonsai or competing, or growing and training (although that is a rabbit hole I am teetering on the edge of), but just a piece of home here.

Next time, consider cuttings.

I've grown a bunch of junipers from seed. The (cold) stratification is the most important part. After that, it's all about adequate watering.

I've started a bunch indoors under bright cool white LEDs. But they sure do better under the sun.

 

[huntergc]

You do not do this! Juniper needs Sunshine/outdoor air for optimum health, what is needed to grow bigger robust tree from seed or sprout. Do not expect indoor survival. 100% understand desire to grow from special tree. Never forget this. Best of fortune.

Good to know!
Coming from my background, we try to baby things in pots over the winter (the extreme cold "snaps" in the early season that can harm the root balls in the pots because they are not ready for it and aren't protected by the mass of the ground, before they have a chance to prepare and the frost has sunk into the ground- if that makes sense). As an example, this fall has been super long and warm where I am, we just went from nights in the low 40's fahrenheit to a night of 24.... Bonsai seems to be very different from a lot of things I know, which is sort of the point of this post. Imagine, in my day job as an arborist, it is a huge deal to take the apical meristem off, and the structures that are being created would NEVER survive. To sum up my very shallow knowledge at this point, if it would kill a regular tree, it might actually be a good idea for a bonsai, obviously taken to an extreme.

An outside tree seems like it would be best. Do you have any advice on using greenhouses (unheated right now, propane to heat them is expensive and not worth it unless we are starting plants in the spring and have massive volume)? As in, for these cold "snaps" could you move it into the unheated greenhouse to take the worst of the cold shock away while still allowing it to preform all it's fall duties? Or would you just let it tough it out because that is what they do? If you were to make an outside environment, how would you deal with the excess moisture and lack of light, especially in the winter (a desert plant growing in Michigan)?

 

[sorce]

My only contribution would be this.......The next 20 years will pass whether you plant the seeds or not. You'll be glad you planted them, I'll bet.

Unless he makes a pointy jin on the top and accidentally sits on it one day!

Welcome to Crazy!

I'd aim to graft those onto something worthy.

Or use this excuse to go collect a tree where they can from.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Exactly! It will pass no matter what. I have the time, I have the space, and it has enough meaning to me

I understand the meaning in having trees from places you love. I have a lot of family in Texas and La. I'm tied to those places even though I live in Virginia--two climate zones away. I have more than a few collected Texas and La. native bonsai, however. I love live oak, bald cypress and cedar elm, even though I get rougher winters here. I've been growing and developing all those species for the last 25 years.

Things I have learned--skip the damn seeds. Life's too short.

If you want to do bonsai with native trees--do bonsai with native trees--don't wait on a seed from a specific parent to allow you to do it.

Believe me, you will either kill the seedling by caring for it too much or grow bored with the first 25 years of it just growing--

Start BIGGER, chop down. Don't "grow up" your bonsai...

I did that with my Texas live oak 30 years ago when I bought a chopped tree from a collector in Texas. I haven't been disappointed in the last almost three decades. This tree has provided me many hours of simple enjoyment and work. If I had waited for a seed, I would only be on the first trunk chop...then another 20 years of development...

The photos below show where I began and where things are now. Collected Utah junipers for bonsai are available from a few professional collectors..

 

[ShadyStump]

Not going to argue with @rockm's points, but there is something satisfying about knowing you took it from seed to full fledged tree with your own two hands. That said, I agree collecting something and taking it back with you would get you that piece of home feeling a little faster.

An un-heated greenhouse should do nicely. There really isn't a way to manage the humidity without keeping your trees in an enclosed, controlled environment, which gets awfully sketchy. Won't say impossible- we have people here who love to experiment with just that sort of thing- but it'll be quite the effort. Just keep it in the driest, sunniest, airiest spot you can find for the warm seasons. The lower natural light levels in the winter shouldn't be a deal breaker. It's not uncommon in their natural range, but a light or two in that greenhouse wouldn't kill it I don't imagine.

 

[rockm]

Yeah, it's satisfying, but you won't be the one with that satisfaction, mostly. This is an issue of perspective. Seeds are an illusion of control. They are the slowest path to any real bonsai and rarely offer the original grower a developed tree--this is particularly true with a slower growing conifer, in an alien climate.

I understand completely about being the "sole proprietor" of a tree. I'm currently developing a cedar elm collected from my parents spread in Texas. I am developing it from scratch. I am the "sole proprietor" of it--me and nature. Nature has a role in growing in a pot as well, just not the wild, unbridled hand that makes fantastic trees in the wild. that wildness, ironically, is what you admire in the original tree...By tightly controlling its offspring in a pot or graden, the environment that produced what you love won't shape your tree. So, it is really the ENVIRONMENT you want to remember, not the tree itself really. Given that, why not work with a tree that has been initially shaped by that environment?

 

[hinmo24t]

Yeah, it's satisfying, but you won't be the one with that satisfaction, mostly. This is an issue of perspective. Seeds are an illusion of control. They are the slowest path to any real bonsai and rarely offer the original grower a developed tree--this is particularly true with a slower growing conifer, in an alien climate.

I understand completely about being the "sole proprietor" of a tree. I'm currently developing a cedar elm collected from my parents spread in Texas. I am developing it from scratch. I am the "sole proprietor" of it--me and nature. Nature has a role in growing in a pot as well, just not the wild, unbridled hand that makes fantastic trees in the wild. that wildness, ironically, is what you admire in the original tree...By tightly controlling its offspring in a pot or graden, the environment that produced what you love won't shape your tree. So, it is really the ENVIRONMENT you want to remember, not the tree itself really. Given that, why not work with a tree that has been initially shaped by that environment?

good points, but it seems like if the goal is to enjoy a quality tree when smaller, like shohin or mame, they can execute it from seed for certain species or from saplings/small layers
if they want a big bonsai, go with big cut established tree like you said...i have both going on but nothing to write home about yet (2ish years into this)

that oak is badass btw


from the net

 

[Kanorin]

<Yells up from down in some deep hole>
"Welcome! It is indeed very deep! I haven't found the bottom yet and probably never will."

 

[Wulfskaar]

I don't get people saying not to grow from seeds. Even old-timers might enjoy knowing their seedlings might be something one day, long after they themselves have moved on to the next realm.

This is the best advice I got:

Growing from seeds can give the grower a great education on that type of tree, not to mention emotional connections that keep us going. If a tree (and us) survive long enough, we'll have complete control over it's development. I've seen people on here have great success growing large numbers of trees from seeds. They might get satisfaction from trading, selling, or giving them away.

BUT, you also want to have some trees in varying stages of development so you aren't ONLY growing from seeds.

I think it's good to grow from seeds, cuttings, layers, work pre-bonsai stock, and also maybe get some actual bonsai to maintain and improve upon. The more stages of development you can work with, the greater your knowledge and experience.