Judging New Talent

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In a world gone mad, one man stands alone to message the world of its shortcomings. That man, 006 in HMSS and the writer of 49 shades of gray, now speaks of judging in general....

The Joshua Roth New Talent Contest

This contest is a recognized contest to showcase up and coming talent that may become the next teachers of bonsai for the future.

Make no mistake, this is a contest, and should be treated as such. I will treat this with as much bluntness as I can keeping in mind that I knew every competitor in that competition except two, the winner and that of the cascade tree. Please keep in mind that my comments have nothing to do with any competitor and more to do with the trees as submitted. I know what Stacy can do and I know what Victrinia can do, so my comments have more to do with their trees and that of the others in this article.

What is a new talent contest? A new talent contest is just what the name implies. A contest to seek out the new talent by way of a contest to find the best use of material.

In my Opinion: there should be no myths in the contest. here are the three biggies;

Myth no 1. I was preserving the future of the tree. Bullshit, this is a competition. The future of the tree is immaterial, yes I understand they are sold, but this is for the win. There were seven people competing to be the winner, why would anyone stop short of the winning result by not going all the way with making a finished tree?

Myth no 2. I didn't have enough time. Bullshit. This was done over 8.5 hours. Lunch? that's for first loser. Work, work fast and with purpose. Prune away stuff that will not be used and wire all the branches first. Save the branch placement for the last two hours. Use the middle time for carving and jins keeping in mind ones time budget, period.

Myth no. 3 wiring is not that important, bullshit. It is the most important thing done to the tree. With the exception of one tree, none had a detailed canopy and most were very rough, with branches sticking out of the outline and upper layers having longer branches than lower layers. This is Bonsai 101 stuff folks, and it was not accomplished.

My opinion for the new talent criteria in order of importance;
1. Wire
2. Overall shape and dynamism
3. Branch placement
4. Branch movement.

You notice that I did not include carving. Why? Because I think for this competition a tree can win without it. While I think carving can be a great reinforcement of age, it has nothing to do with a new talent contest. New talents need to be masters of the basics. Can you build an evocative shape, can you bend branches, can you detail wire a whole tree with a time limit and can you place those branches suitable to your goal. That is what should be judged.

I do not have the judging criteria for this event, maybe someone can provide them for this post and it will be easier to evaluate the outcome based on the real judging points rather than my opinion.

Competitors out there, please do not take this wrong, I make no personal evaluations on the work, because I know most of them personally and have seen their other work so to base my opinion solely on this is not the case. The caliber of the material was unbelievable and I was only there until 12.30 PM. Most of the people were still working on jins and carving, power tools and hand tools and only Stacy was detail wiring his branches. Based on what I saw at that time, I felt that the end results were going to be earth shattering.

I was disappointed. These trunks in some cases were over 5 inches across at the soil line. Most were about three feet tall with long up sweeping branches and I just knew that with wire and some elbow grease these bushes were going to be bent over and wired out into some of the best canopies I had ever seen.

The last time I came thru, the tent, you guys remember what I was yelling out? I don't hear anyone cracking wood! When styling junipers, without cracking wood there can be no bonsai. These trees required lots of bending and in some cases breaking branches, sealing them and move on. Junipers can have their branches cracked in half and as long as the underneath is solid the branch will mend and all is good. Many had raffia and vet wrap, poly tape and such but I did not see any need for it since most of the branches were barely bent anyway. I seen no clamps or mechanical tools for bending long and thick branches so lots of work was left in the tent that day.

Three of the competitors study with Boon, the winner studies with Ryan and one studied with Dan Robinson. That's some pretty good schooling. I know that, and have seen past work from those that have posted personal work before. Had I been completely oblivious to the schooling of five of the seven I would think they have never wired a tree before. That's just based on finished pictures since I did not see the finished trees in person, still that shouldn't make a huge difference since good wiring will obviously make a difference even in a picture.

Looking at the pictures as they are, keeping in mind that ones own preference to shape doesn't matter much in this type of competition since it's really about how much technique each of the competitors can show in an allotted amount of time on a random tree making the best use of it. We all know that given a choice each competitor would have loved to pick the tree they wished to style, but that is not the case. Each competitor has to make the best use of what they get. While that may not be to any onlookers taste, thats not what is on display. What is on display is how they treated the material and did they make the best possible bonsai as presented.

When it's all said and done, looking at each picture, one has to ask themselves is there a tree there that could be placed in a bonsai pot and moved to the exhibit room. Yes there was in my opinion, and that tree did not win, I have to ask myself why?
 
I will leave it at, I wish I had seen this in writing before I made an attempt at this, would have made a huge difference, HUGE.

Spot on Al, spot on.

At one point I was seeing if the majority of the tree would snap off, but I stopped and used the whole thing. Later Charles Cerronnio asked if the back branch wouldn't have made a nice little tree. I told him I almost did that. I told him I thought some might not like that I tossed the most of the tree that cost $100, and would be sold at auction.

Good post.
 


When it's all said and done, looking at each picture, one has to ask themselves is there a tree there that could be placed in a bonsai pot and moved to the exhibit room. Yes there was in my opinion, and that tree did not win, I have to ask myself why?


So---in your opinion why didn't the best tree win? Because of the subjective opinion of the judge does not square with yours, because of the prejudiced opinion of the judge, or because the judge excluded the tree because of something they knew or suspected?
 
So---in your opinion why didn't the best tree win? Because of the subjective opinion of the judge does not square with yours, because of the prejudiced opinion of the judge, or because the judge excluded the tree because of something they knew or suspected?

Since this is an opinion piece, I can accept all of those, thanks.

I also have other opinions on it but those are not for here.
 
So---in your opinion why didn't the best tree win? Because of the subjective opinion of the judge does not square with yours, because of the prejudiced opinion of the judge, or because the judge excluded the tree because of something they knew or suspected?

I felt the best "BONSAI" was #3. My reasons are shared above. Others have voiced their choices, but have not really done a good job of explaining why based on what a new talent competition should be about. I have provided my opinions on what some criteria should be looked at when making a choice. If you have other ideas you would like to add in how that choice would be made and what it should be based on I would love to hear it. I think it deserves discussion and that was not being discussed in the other thread.

If tree #3 didnt exist in this contest and pose such a stark contrast to the other 6 there would not even be a need for such discussion, because at that point it would be based solely on subjectivity.

People have to look at the talents as an overall process to that which was applied to the tree, and base decisions solely on that. Shapes are not a reason, deadwood without wire is not a reason, etc., etc. This is a bonsai talent contest not a tree contest.

You have to ask yourself if all these teachers were available to the public for the same price and your sore suit was wireing a tree to look like a finely groomed bonsai, (of which there are many right on this forum) who would you enlist for help? That is what a talent contest is supposed to do for this group. I think the judges looked past that aspect for some reason...

ooops, that was an inside thought....
 
Since I know the forums can be duanting and people don't always get your jest...

Consider this as a different way to look at it.

What if.... Stacy had recieved the best peice of material the contest had to offer. Based solely on the pictures and what was exhibited, who may have made the BEST tree based on that scenario?

Thats why you can't base your choice on shape or things you have no control over. You just have to make the BEST use of what you get. One did that, 6 fell short.
 
Of course a tree can win without carving... I wouldn't want to win without it though. lol

Nice Op Ed.... I certainly listened to all of your thoughts and advice beforehand. I too believe that Stacy's tree would have been a worthy winner. Based on your criteria, he's the only one indeed. Your criteria isn't the criteria they use though... and this particular set of judges didn't apparently agree.

The only anomaly about the judges is that Peter Tea made a point of coming through, he knew who's trees were who's. That's a bit odd. Most of the time the judges stay away so there's no chance of bias.

As to the popular vote... I know there was lobbying going on for Ryan's tree... and that's fine... it was the only part of the 'game' I didn't engage in. Whether that was the tipping point, I don't know... I don't care at this point. None of this takes away from what I got out of it. :)

V
 
An amused and happy challenge.....

Your friend Mr. Scott... I'm sure he has more of these beauties... go pick one... date/time stamp an image... and work on it for 8.5 hours.

I have all faith in your integrity and honor. I'd take you at your word, and not even mind the advantage of you getting to select anything you wanted from the same group.

I'd love to see what someone of your caliber would do. I mean that with all my heart... :)

V
 
Of course a tree can win without carving... I wouldn't want to win without it though. lol

Nice Op Ed.... I certainly listened to all of your thoughts and advice beforehand. I too believe that Stacy's tree would have been a worthy winner. Based on your criteria, he's the only one indeed. Your criteria isn't the criteria they use though... and this particular set of judges didn't apparently agree.

The only anomaly about the judges is that Peter Tea made a point of coming through, he knew who's trees were who's. That's a bit odd. Most of the time the judges stay away so there's no chance of bias.

As to the popular vote... I know there was lobbying going on for Ryan's tree... and that's fine... it was the only part of the 'game' I didn't engage in. Whether that was the tipping point, I don't know... I don't care at this point. None of this takes away from what I got out of it. :)

V

I appreciate your candidness in sharing your thoughts. We spoke of this, or at least I spoke of this this with you by PM weeks before the event. I do not like politics in bonsai and I hate it even more in contests and it surly shows here. I have been envolved in politics three times in contests with GSBF and I will never do it again.

For the record I too appreciate deadwood on junipers and feel that a juniper with out deadwood is just a ...well juniper. But....and for me, MHO, a juniper without canopy is still a juniper with even the best deadwood. I'll take a canopy over deadwood anyday.
Hah, different strokes...

I got the proof on Peter....He had just come from the tent.
 

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I have worked with Kathy pretty closely... she's stayed at my home and is pretty familiar with my work. She didn't even know I was in it until after she voted... then her eyes flew up and she said she knew which one was mine. lol

Bonsai is an incestuous community, when it isn't being cannibalistic in eating it's young... California sadly has no corner on the politic market of bonsai. There was obviously politics in some aspects... but I think the thing that's important is that the competitors, between ourselves, kept it clean and supportive. We lent each other things, and gave encouraging remarks on progress. I was honored by them, as I honored them. I couldn't ask for better.... and in victory or not, everyone was gracious and generous because of the shared experience. It WAS hard.... there's no bullshit in that.

V
 
Your friend Mr. Scott... I'm sure he has more of these beauties... go pick one... date/time stamp an image... and work on it for 8.5 hours.

I have all faith in your integrity and honor. I'd take you at your word, and not even mind the advantage of you getting to select anything you wanted from the same group.

I'd love to see what someone of your caliber would do. I mean that with all my heart... :)

V

I have already talked to Scott and he does not have any more of these. All he had was the eight he brought for the event. Since he was the chair for the entire Convention I'm sure the convention payed a fortune for the trees. He does have some smaller ones though he told me that they were not of this caliber. These came from an old nursery in Gilroy California.

There were a couple I would have loved to take a stab at. there were some really great trees there to play with. I was just hoping for some real dramatic trees after seeing what you guys were working with in the morning. Save one, I was really kinda shocked when Stacy posted the pictures....sorry.

Here are some pictures for you to cop....
 

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I have worked with Kathy pretty closely... she's stayed at my home and is pretty familiar with my work. She didn't even know I was in it until after she voted... then her eyes flew up and she said she knew which one was mine. lol

Bonsai is an incestuous community, when it isn't being cannibalistic in eating it's young... California sadly has no corner on the politic market of bonsai. There was obviously politics in some aspects... but I think the thing that's important is that the competitors, between ourselves, kept it clean and supportive. We lent each other things, and gave encouraging remarks on progress. I was honored by them, as I honored them. I couldn't ask for better.... and in victory or not, everyone was gracious and generous because of the shared experience. It WAS hard.... there's no bullshit in that.

V

Of all the teachers California has produced, she is the most under rated and also the most honest of all the teachers. I have learned more from her than any other teacher except Tosh Sabumaru and Katsumi Kinoshita. Bonsai politics is not in her vocabulary.
 
Sorry I disappointed you brother... that puts you on a short list. lol But I know you have your own particular standards, so I'll leave it at that. I made Eric, Daniel, diane, and a host of other people proud, I can live with that. :)

V
 
Of all the teachers California has produced, she is the most under rated and also the most honest of all the teachers. I have learned more from her than any other teacher except Tosh Sabumaru and Katsumi Kinoshita. Bonsai politics is not in her vocabulary.

I won't tell you what she said about my tree then.... because it'll leave you scratching your head. You KNOW she's not one to say anything about a tree she doesn't believe. It's not in her nature.

V
 
Interesting viewpoint (referring to the original post).

For anyone familiar with the new talent competition in general, is there a set of criteria that is consistently applied from year to year? Or do the "rules" change depending on who is judging. I know that Stacey participated in the contest last year and would be curious to hear his thoughts on whether the judging was consistent from year to year.

As for the importance of wiring...is it really the most important factor that should be judged? I've become better at wiring over the past few years (still not nearly good enough but lots of improvement). However, I have a very hard time looking at a piece of raw material and figuring out how to make a tree out of it - what to keep, what to discard, how to define the canopy. Seems to me that is an essential and equal part of the process that should be judged equally with wiring or other purely technical skills.
 
Make sure we are clear on this. I am not dissappointed in you, just the outcome of the tree. I feel you could have done better, I have seen your work. That said, you did what many can never and would never do, and that is present yourself to all the world. How can anyone be dissapointed in that.
 
Interesting viewpoint (referring to the original post).

For anyone familiar with the new talent competition in general, is there a set of criteria that is consistently applied from year to year? Or do the "rules" change depending on who is judging. I know that Stacey participated in the contest last year and would be curious to hear his thoughts on whether the judging was consistent from year to year.

As for the importance of wiring...is it really the most important factor that should be judged? I've become better at wiring over the past few years (still not nearly good enough but lots of improvement). However, I have a very hard time looking at a piece of raw material and figuring out how to make a tree out of it - what to keep, what to discard, how to define the canopy. Seems to me that is an essential and equal part of the process that should be judged equally with wiring or other purely technical skills.

That is why I place a huge amount of importance on this which I noted:

My opinion for the new talent criteria in order of importance;
1. Wire
2. Overall shape and dynamism
3. Branch placement
4. Branch movement.
 
Man... you are going to have to send me a bill for this one!!!:cool:

But, honestly I thank you... it means alot!!!
Me and you have been at odds with each other ever since I joined
Up here and even though we don't always see eye to eye on
Everything and I for most here, are the reasons for all problems...
One thing through it all we have never done is talk BS when it comes
To Bonsai. And I personally thank you for that. :-)

One thing in life I have realized is there is always going to be politics.
Folks who like you, folks that don't... Attitudes towards how things are
Suppose to be done, or not done. Judges who at the end of the day judge
Trees on certain criterias, those who judge on personal criteria. But, in
The end, none of this really matters... just means you have to be that much
Better. So, in the end there is no question on who won.

Sadly, this is my last year I qualify or I would be the first in line for next
Year, and I would of worked that much harder for it. But, I accomplished
What I set out to do... to show folks who never met me that I know how to
Do bonsai. As well as perhaps break a few misconception along the way...
Like that you don't have to go and study with some ultimate supreme guru
Who has studied in Japan... I am just some guy who has taught himself every
Thing I know about Bonsai sitting in my back yard in Florida. Never been to
Japan or China... but through hard work, trial and error and perseverance. I
Have managed to compete with those who have. I grew up with parents who
Always taught me if you want if you want something bad enough, obviously within
Reason, and you set your mind to it you can do anything.

Up until now I always felt like what ever... but this trip taught me how true it really is.
I gotta say honestly, I really felt a little beat up after the whole experience. I mean,
How is one to feel when you literally give something all you can and there just
Really isn't anymore left to give? There just wasn't anymore real estate left in the
Tree...

Having said this... I think it is crucial that we keep the kind of discussions positive.
The whole experience really is life changing as it should be. This event was for me
Perhaps the best thing about Bonsai ! It's hard, and hard work, but it is open to everyone,
As long as you are willing to work hard to get there. And whether you win or
Not, it really does not matter, it is just the journey that really counts!!!

I mean I got folks telling me to let me know when I am back in California, they want me to
Work on trees, and I have people like you writing really cool posts showing
Your appreciation for what I have done, and Victrinia standing up for me, even
Ryan who won, messaged me to say that he heard from ABS that my tree
Gave his a running for the people's vote (what ever that means :-)), and I think
To myself, how freakin awesome is that!!!
 
That is why I place a huge amount of importance on this which I noted:

My opinion for the new talent criteria in order of importance;
1. Wire
2. Overall shape and dynamism
3. Branch placement
4. Branch movement.

Sure, but later you said

You have to ask yourself if all these teachers were available to the public for the same price and your sore suit was wireing a tree to look like a finely groomed bonsai, (of which there are many right on this forum) who would you enlist for help? That is what a talent contest is supposed to do for this group. I think the judges looked past that aspect for some reason...

So what if my sore suit isn't wiring as much as it is overall shaping or branch placement, etc? Then I would probably look for one of the other talents. So I don't think I would place wiring as #1 and overall shape as #2, I'd rate them equally...whereas you are obviously placing more emphasis on the final detailing.
 
Sure, but later you said

You have to ask yourself if all these teachers were available to the public for the same price and your sore suit was wireing a tree to look like a finely groomed bonsai, (of which there are many right on this forum) who would you enlist for help? That is what a talent contest is supposed to do for this group. I think the judges looked past that aspect for some reason...

So what if my sore suit isn't wiring as much as it is overall shaping or branch placement, etc? Then I would probably look for one of the other talents. So I don't think I would place wiring as #1 and overall shape as #2, I'd rate them equally...whereas you are obviously placing more emphasis on the final detailing.

Thats because a master with wire can hide all the faults you can't do....
 
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