Job frost damage
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sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Hell, it would be easier to set this up in a garage.
1/4inch hardware cloth so you cant argue the physics with mouse skull size.
Whatevs.
Sorce
1/4inch hardware cloth so you cant argue the physics with mouse skull size.
Whatevs.
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
You're right chicken people don't really need to keep out mice, just rats.
1/4in blocks a lot of sun light but outdoors would bring it back up, and be right safer from VC.
Sorce
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I kept lots of trees mulched on the floor of my unattached garage in zone 6 MA for over a decade with no problems other then a few maples getting smaller branches gnawed on by mice... easily remedied with traps the following year. The trees always broke dormancy and grew well each spring... both deciduous and evergreen. The key was and still is to keep them cold/below 40 F- for most of the winter and into the spring if possible. I preferred cold enough to maintain frozen soil mainly because I didn't have to worry about watering. I don't need that kind of protection here in GA... but if I made the move back up there, I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
TN_Jim
Omono
I got no dog in this or that. The thing I read that first caught my attention was conifers in a garage over an entire with regard to not being in the sun. Doing this for a decade with positive results was a, “wait what!!?” -thread watched at the initial idea
Forgive my potential ignorance, but can someone talk about why, and the degree of semi-dormancy with regard to photosynthesis need/demand/supply for coniferous genera?
So Junipers & Pines, for example, can thrive without direct sunlight for 3 months a year consistently in the same manner as in the sun? If so, this is fascinating light-wise good food for thought.
Please don’t read me wrong, I’m impressed, confused, and wish I knew more of the biology of coniferous semi-dormancy.
Thanks
Forgive my potential ignorance, but can someone talk about why, and the degree of semi-dormancy with regard to photosynthesis need/demand/supply for coniferous genera?
So Junipers & Pines, for example, can thrive without direct sunlight for 3 months a year consistently in the same manner as in the sun? If so, this is fascinating light-wise good food for thought.
Please don’t read me wrong, I’m impressed, confused, and wish I knew more of the biology of coniferous semi-dormancy.
Thanks
David Spencer
Seedling
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I currently have the bonsai in the non heated garage. I read somewhere that you could even store it in your refrigerator, is that true? I would like to thank everyone who replied to me. I am relatively new to bonsai, so thanks again.
Dave from Wisconsin
Dave from Wisconsin
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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Think about what happens to small alpine conifers way up in the mountains where they might be completely covered by feet of snow for upwards of 6 months each year. Ultimately, when the temps warm up, the snow melts and the trees put on a season’s growth before the snow flies again next fall. At temps below 40 F, metabolism slows to the point where the need for light is minimal... at or below freezing and it’s not needed at all.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I believe this is true.
What I wonder, is the indirect things that light may be needed for.
The light in the environment of the tree, that tells the tree, it is still alive in it's environment...."unconfused".
I believe there are links besides these truths that the trees miss.
This doesn't have anything to do with previous ideas. It's a new thought.
If anything, the only unnatural thing about a pot is it's broken link to the Earth's mycorrhiza, so if we give that back.....
I think folks underestimate them fungal Iinks too. Surely we don't understand It enough to know. Well... wireme might!
Sorce
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I don't hate you, but you post a lot of pure bullshit. I'll call that out when I see it. I guess you can lose track when you're posting 100 times a day.
Why would I need to set this up in a garage? LOL. You're out of control today. Take a break!
Colorado
Masterpiece
One question that has not been asked in this debate is: WHY would overwintering in a garage be detrimental to the tree?
Light? Temperature?
@sorce ?
I don’t really have a dog in this fight at all. I think sorce has a lot of interesting ideas and it’s quite egotistical to dismiss them because you haven’t taken the time to actually think about it. I also prefer to have trees that can withstand my winter without protection.
For me, that means ponderosa pines, limbers, pinyons, Japanese white, Japanese red, RMJ, Amur, etc etc.
But sometimes it’s just so tempting to get some a. Palmatum or JBP etc. I don’t have enough experience to know whether these will make it long term here...but right now they’re outside testing the limits because I have no other choice with my current living location
Anyway, the point of this post is that no one has asked the question: WHY?
Light? Temperature?
@sorce ?
I don’t really have a dog in this fight at all. I think sorce has a lot of interesting ideas and it’s quite egotistical to dismiss them because you haven’t taken the time to actually think about it. I also prefer to have trees that can withstand my winter without protection.
For me, that means ponderosa pines, limbers, pinyons, Japanese white, Japanese red, RMJ, Amur, etc etc.
But sometimes it’s just so tempting to get some a. Palmatum or JBP etc. I don’t have enough experience to know whether these will make it long term here...but right now they’re outside testing the limits because I have no other choice with my current living location
Anyway, the point of this post is that no one has asked the question: WHY?
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I
If its too warm, the tree might not get a proper dormancy which may eventually weaken the tree and it will die.
If the bonsaist is not watchful and diligent to water needs, the trees may die for lack of water.
It is up to the bonsaist to be vigilent and do what works for them in their environment. There are very few absolutes in bonsai other than if you dont water your tree it will die.
Part of your comment hits a key point "I also prefer to have trees that can withstand my winter without protection"
It IS species dependant. Some species are not as cold hardy as others. Some people like to enjoy species that will not survive in thier area in winter.
Many of us have ficus and Brazilian rain trees that we have had for years with proper protection during winter.
However, once you put a tree in a pot, it is not as cold hardy as one growing in your lawn. Even the most cold hardy trees lose some degree of hardiness by the fact that they are confined to a pot, not in the ground where thier roots can grow deep below the frost/freeze line. The tree growing in your yard has roots that go deeper rather than the unatural state of being in a pot and it is much larger with much much more mass that can withstand cold temperatures better than a smaller one.
Yes Sorce has some interesting ideas.
However he often speaks with authority that he does not have, hidden behind a high post count and tries to pass off ideas as absolute irrefutable fact that is blatently incorrect and can mislead people. In the interest of making sure people get correct information, some of us will not stand for misinformation being passed around as fact when it is in fact not.
One question that has not been asked in this debate is: WHY would overwintering in a garage be detrimental to the tree?
Light? Temperature?
@sorce ?
I don’t really have a dog in this fight at all. I think sorce has a lot of interesting ideas and it’s quite egotistical to dismiss them because you haven’t taken the time to actually think about it. I also prefer to have trees that can withstand my winter without protection.
For me, that means ponderosa pines, limbers, pinyons, Japanese white, Japanese red, RMJ, Amur, etc etc.
But sometimes it’s just so tempting to get some a. Palmatum or JBP etc. I don’t have enough experience to know whether these will make it long term here...but right now they’re outside testing the limits because I have no other choice with my current living location
Anyway, the point of this post is that no one has asked the question: WHY?
If its too warm, the tree might not get a proper dormancy which may eventually weaken the tree and it will die.
If the bonsaist is not watchful and diligent to water needs, the trees may die for lack of water.
It is up to the bonsaist to be vigilent and do what works for them in their environment. There are very few absolutes in bonsai other than if you dont water your tree it will die.
Part of your comment hits a key point "I also prefer to have trees that can withstand my winter without protection"
It IS species dependant. Some species are not as cold hardy as others. Some people like to enjoy species that will not survive in thier area in winter.
Many of us have ficus and Brazilian rain trees that we have had for years with proper protection during winter.
However, once you put a tree in a pot, it is not as cold hardy as one growing in your lawn. Even the most cold hardy trees lose some degree of hardiness by the fact that they are confined to a pot, not in the ground where thier roots can grow deep below the frost/freeze line. The tree growing in your yard has roots that go deeper rather than the unatural state of being in a pot and it is much larger with much much more mass that can withstand cold temperatures better than a smaller one.
Yes Sorce has some interesting ideas.
However he often speaks with authority that he does not have, hidden behind a high post count and tries to pass off ideas as absolute irrefutable fact that is blatently incorrect and can mislead people. In the interest of making sure people get correct information, some of us will not stand for misinformation being passed around as fact when it is in fact not.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
It's the same things as keeping them indoors at all, and we're all on board for that.
We know it's not just about light, it's about heat, humidity, fresh moving air, and the subtle changes that take place outdoors.
Like rain bringing a sudden drop in temperature, or feeling the barometric pressure to prepare for a drop in temperature.
All this changes inside walls.
Breezes carry lessened pressure.
The differences are already realized.
That's why I'm solving every outdoor problem.
At least that's the goal, if allowed.
There would have to be a useful exchange to reach the goal.
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I dont have to. You provide plenty of evidence all on your own and have been for years.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but 20,000 posts on a bonsai forum dont make you a bonsai master or expert.
It just means you type alot.
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Colorado
Masterpiece
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Ever keep a barometer inside your house? We have had one for decades.This is interesting...
It "feels" the pressure just as well inside as outside.
Thats why many people have them hanging on the walls INSIDE the house
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
You've created the bubble you're bursting.
I don't own it.
Quote something where I'm spreading misinformation. Just one.
If there are so many, it should be easy.
Please.
Sorce
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Fine. I dont need to go far, just your last post will do
sorce said:
I already disputed this one. There are things called barometers you can buy for your house that measure barometric pressure.
Your house is not hermetically sealed. The barometric pressure (or atmospheric pressure) can be felt equally inside and outside the house which is why people hang them inside the house to read changes in barometric pressure. Changes in Barometric pressure does not indicate a drop in temperature, it just means a different air mass with different pressure is moving in.
sorce said:
Wind does not "carry" lower pressure. Wind is a result of air movement between air masses of different pressures. The greater the pressure gradient, usually stronger wind.
Whether its higher or lower pressure depends on which way the air masses are moving and what the pressure gradient is doing in your area.
Drops in barometric pressure often indicates a storm is approaching because storms often have low pressure. Hurricanes in particular have low pressure.
A strong drop in pressure can indicate a strong storm is approaching. Yes the temperature CAN drop when it rains, but it can also get more humid and feel hotter becuase the clouds trap the heat and keep it from escaping earths atmosphere.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Bill Valavanis keeps his trees inside a garage, with themostatically controlled heaters to keep temps around 26-27 F. He's been doing that for a long time, decades. What do you think of his trees? Are they healthy? He's had some of them in bonsai containers for 30, 40 years maybe more. No breezes, minimal light, no fresh moving air.
My system is modeled after his. I built 2 cheap, plastic enclosed frame shelters, one in my garage, one in my barn. When it is deep winter those shelters are closed up tight, with heaters to maintain temps in the mid 20s. I keep all kinds of species in there, evergreens (JBP, juniper...), maples, hornbeams, everything. No problems with lack of light, or airflow. No problems with fungus due to lack of fresh air. No trees lost to mice or voles or rabbits or squirrels or harsh cold winds when there isn't enough snow...I do open them up for ventilation whenever conditions permit but sometimes they are close up tight for weeks at a time.
No need to reinvent the wheel. There's nothing wrong with wintering trees in a garage. It most certainly is NOT the same as trying to grow trees (like junipers) indoors year round, though even that has been proven possible by Jack Wikle.
