JBP grafting technique with cut candles?

[yashu]

I was watching random bonsai vids on the YouTubes and came across one where the gentleman was treating his cut candles with rooting hormone and planting them just like one would strike cuttings. This got me thinking; could I cut candles from my JBP and then graft the candles on the same tree where a branch (branches) are needed?

I took a JBP workshop at NEBG last week and participants received a fairly nice piece of raw material (unfortunately for me we drew numbers to ascertain the order people got to choose their trees and I was last). Anyway, my tree has a stout trunk but I’d like a branch or two lower down and I wonder if the technique I described above could be an option come June when I decandle the tree? Could this work? Too much stress at once? The tree is very healthy a vigorous so that should not be an issue.

Besides the candle grafting idea, how about simply taking a cutting from last years growth and grafting it to the target area on the same tree? Is that a relatively sound technique? What time of year?

 

[mrcasey]

I've rarely heard of folks grafting pines in late spring or early summer. I've never tried it and
I can't tell you definitively that it won't ever work, but there's probably a good reason that it isn't often done. I doubt that a couple of grafts done then would hurt the tree; I just don't think they would take. Here in zone 6 near the Ohio River, I've had some success doing free pine grafts in February and the first week of September. Your zone is much colder than mine, so you'd have to adjust accordingly.

 

[yashu]

Thanks for the input. My JBPs are sheltered and kept between 33° and 40° and under lights from December through April, weather depending. I avoid the hard freezes but I’m not afraid to do the bonsai shuffle when the days are warm and clear.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

It's my understanding that you graft pines when they're dormant. I've tried active pines and all the grafts failed.

So putting clippings in soil and using those for grafting seems viable.

 

[River's Edge]

I was watching random bonsai vids on the YouTubes and came across one where the gentleman was treating his cut candles with rooting hormone and planting them just like one would strike cuttings. This got me thinking; could I cut candles from my JBP and then graft the candles on the same tree where a branch (branches) are needed?

I took a JBP workshop at NEBG last week and participants received a fairly nice piece of raw material (unfortunately for me we drew numbers to ascertain the order people got to choose their trees and I was last). Anyway, my tree has a stout trunk but I’d like a branch or two lower down and I wonder if the technique I described above could be an option come June when I decandle the tree? Could this work? Too much stress at once? The tree is very healthy a vigorous so that should not be an issue.

Besides the candle grafting idea, how about simply taking a cutting from last years growth and grafting it to the target area on the same tree? Is that a relatively sound technique? What time of year?View attachment 473948

You will increase your chances by following a different process. Decandle as planned, use the new growth from the second flush for the grafting scions in January or February next year! If grafting lower on the trunk or interior select the stronger apical candles for the scions rather than medium or weaker interior candles. Get some grafting instruction ahead of time or help from an experienced person when first starting out. This will also increase your chances of success and likely lead to better outcomes. For example selecting proper sites for grafting, considering the angle for best outcomes in design etc.
grafting like many bonsai techniques is dependant on detailed execution and planning.

 

[RJG2]

Never heard of grafting candles, but you never know.

Looks like Jonas does late winter/early spring - if it's too warm and the sap is flowing too fast, and gets in the way of a good union.

Trunk grafting - black pine - Bonsai Tonight

Grafting is one of the most useful techniques for developing bonsai from rough stock. A pine I have been working on for the past few years needs a few more

bonsaitonight.com

 

[yashu]

It's my understanding that you graft pines when they're dormant. I've tried active pines and all the grafts failed.

So putting clippings in soil and using those for grafting seems viable.

My tree is still dormant right now. Would it be worth trying to “move a branch” now, before candles begin to push?

 

[River's Edge]

When asking what can be done with a tree, it is beneficial to indicate what has recently been done to the tree!
For example, what work was done in the recent workshop? If none, then this is a good time to thin and wire the tree in preparation for the growing season. If it was recently repotted then I would avoid additional work right now. Further information would assist others to give more informative responses.

 

[yashu]

When asking what can be done with a tree, it is beneficial to indicate what has recently been done to the tree!
For example, what work was done in the recent workshop? If none, then this is a good time to thin and wire the tree in preparation for the growing season. If it was recently repotted then I would avoid additional work right now. Further information would assist others to give more informative responses.

Thanks @River's Edge

Yes, the tree has already been put through it’s paces with a repot, root reduction and foliage reduction so I’ll wait on that. It’s going to be hard not to get antsy with this plant.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

My tree is still dormant right now. Would it be worth trying to “move a branch” now, before candles begin to push?

As in approach grafting that branch? Sure. I've done so last week, and now we're getting some frosts..
That's on me though, way too excited.
As for scion grafting, I'd go with what the experts advise. I can do junipers and some deciduous, but not pines.. Yet.

 

[Shibui]

Candles are soft so they will be harder to graft without damage. Also need to keep them healthy until water can pass through the graft union. Difficult to keep soft cuttings/grafts alive for long enough to form that union. 1 year wood is much more resilient and has enough stores to keep it alive for the time taken to form a union.
I have had some successful grafts in summer but not consistent enough to change from spring grafting.

 

[yashu]

I am wondering is the success rate of using a scion from the same tree any more or less successful? Is this a technique that’s frequently used?

This could effect my decision (on many trees I suppose) on what branches to prune or not. I might see growth that I would like to move to another area on the tree so I would save this growth rather than removing it. I just haven’t seen this done except as inarch grafts or thread grafts and don’t know if it’s bad practice to do scion grafts from the same tree. I know this has gone off topic from the candle graft concept but I’d like to do a graft on this tree and would like the foliage to be identical so obviously relocating a branch on the same tree would be genetically the same.

 

[Shibui]

There should be no difference grafting shoots from the same tree and grafting shoots from other trees of the same species. It won't matter whether your scions come from the same tree or another.