JBP case study

[nathanbs]

Pricey to me based on what I can often find good JBP stock for. Corkers are for the birds, they never look good and are often weaker growers. This is all good news to me because I am currently growing close to 150 regular black pines that are looking way better than this stock. So you're right it's cheap at $600 I think it's worth twice that. I'll start taking orders soon

 

[nathanbs]

I would agree with this. If you spent 4 years on this tree to build the basic structure and have it in an appropriate container, you would easily sell it for $800-900. So you spend four years on it and increase its value by 30-50%, but most would consider $600 to be overpriced when Brent has worked on it for 16 years. I think there is a pretty big disconnect in people's mind as far as assigning a value to stock versus a value to finished or almost finished trees. Don't undervalue rough stock, because it is not easy to produce and most of the time you are looking at a decade or more of work.

That being said, I would rather spend $600 on a nice beefy regular jbp. In fact, I just did a week ago. Maybe one day I will want one of these strange varieties, but the corkers never tickled my fancy. Everything aside, the first 3-4" trunk line of Brent's pine is sexy.

This tree would need a miracle to be worth $800-900 don't count your chickens before they hatch. There may be 2-3 people on this forum that can put in a decade of work on this tree and may be able to turn a profit on it.

 

[fredtruck]

It takes at least a decade. I have a Mi Nishiki I got from Brent as a 4 year old cutting in 2002. It's now just over 16 years old. These trees cork up very slowly--20 years to be fully mature. Some corkers grow fast but others are quite slow.

 

[dpowell]

A few other things to think about; there's a small back branch that you can see poking out that could be part of the design.
Also, more importantly, these pictures are at least a year old. If you read the descriptions he talks about these back budding quite well after a chop so I would imagine a lot has changed in the past year.
I've purchased a couple of his larger pines in the past (and another two when I visited today) and am very pleased with the quality and price.

-Danny

 

[pwk5017]

This tree would need a miracle to be worth $800-900 don't count your chickens before they hatch. There may be 2-3 people on this forum that can put in a decade of work on this tree and may be able to turn a profit on it.

I exaggerated my numbers a bit, but the question still remains unanswered. Look at your hornbeam as an example. It's at like $525 or something. If that doesn't have as much twiggy ness and it's in a nursery can, then what is its value? $250, maybe? But you spent 3 or so years building some refinement and it's in a bonsai pot, so the general public's perception of its value skyrockets. I find it mildly hypocritical of you to bad mouth a reputable grower, but it's ok when your own goods are fetching fair/high prices.

Why do values increase dramatically(compared to raw stock) when trees are in a pot and attain a certain amount of refinement? I am not talking about finished trees either.

 

[october]

I exaggerated my numbers a bit, but the question still remains unanswered. Look at your hornbeam as an example. It's at like $525 or something. If that doesn't have as much twiggy ness and it's in a nursery can, then what is its value? $250, maybe? But you spent 3 or so years building some refinement and it's in a bonsai pot, so the general public's perception of its value skyrockets. I find it mildly hypocritical of you to bad mouth a reputable grower, but it's ok when your own goods are fetching fair/high prices.

Why do values increase dramatically(compared to raw stock) when trees are in a pot and attain a certain amount of refinement? I am not talking about finished trees either.

As you leave California, trees become more expensive. The stock selling for $200 in CA would probably go for like $400 around here in MA. Price is not only subjective to material, but to the area. Also, the price usually goes up when any work is done to the tree. For example, a first styling.

 

[bonsaibp]

I exaggerated my numbers a bit, but the question still remains unanswered. Look at your hornbeam as an example. It's at like $525 or something. If that doesn't have as much twiggy ness and it's in a nursery can, then what is its value? $250, maybe? But you spent 3 or so years building some refinement and it's in a bonsai pot, so the general public's perception of its value skyrockets. I find it mildly hypocritical of you to bad mouth a reputable grower, but it's ok when your own goods are fetching fair/high prices.

Why do values increase dramatically(compared to raw stock) when trees are in a pot and attain a certain amount of refinement? I am not talking about finished trees either.

For the general public and a good part of the bonsai community it is mostly a matter of perception. If it is in a nursery can it is perceived as tree or raw stock- put something less developed into a bonsai pot and most people automatically assume it's more valuable because it's a bonsai -not just a tree. Case in point those junipers stuck in a pot and shipped all over the country- in a nursery can the same tree could cost from $3-$10 depending on where you buy it. Put that same tree in a $5 pot and it sells for $25-$50 again depending on where you buy it.
Better material is the same if it is not in a bonsai pot then it is thought of as having less value. This is why a lot of places pot trees that really aren't ready for a pot- you can get more money for them.
The other part is because obviously more work and time has been invested in it.

 

[nathanbs]

I exaggerated my numbers a bit, but the question still remains unanswered. Look at your hornbeam as an example. It's at like $525 or something. If that doesn't have as much twiggy ness and it's in a nursery can, then what is its value? $250, maybe? But you spent 3 or so years building some refinement and it's in a bonsai pot, so the general public's perception of its value skyrockets. I find it mildly hypocritical of you to bad mouth a reputable grower, but it's ok when your own goods are fetching fair/high prices.

Why do values increase dramatically(compared to raw stock) when trees are in a pot and attain a certain amount of refinement? I am not talking about finished trees either.

Number 1 I did not bad mouth anyone I just advised Dario that the tree was pricey and then you jumped at the opportunity to berade me. 2. Korean hornbeams are pretty uncommon and are on quite a few radars and wish lists. Mine happens to be a very nice one if you look at the ones you see it is up there. Lastly I think you are are being way too general in thinking that labor equals money even if the product doesn't reflect the labor. That pine definitely does not have more than 4 hours of labor besides watering and fertilizing of course. If it does than perhaps I will bad mouth a reputable grower because the tree certainly doesn't reflect much work

 

[pwk5017]

For the general public and a good part of the bonsai community it is mostly a matter of perception. If it is in a nursery can it is perceived as tree or raw stock- put something less developed into a bonsai pot and most people automatically assume it's more valuable because it's a bonsai -not just a tree. Case in point those junipers stuck in a pot and shipped all over the country- in a nursery can the same tree could cost from $3-$10 depending on where you buy it. Put that same tree in a $5 pot and it sells for $25-$50 again depending on where you buy it.
Better material is the same if it is not in a bonsai pot then it is thought of as having less value. This is why a lot of places pot trees that really aren't ready for a pot- you can get more money for them.
The other part is because obviously more work and time has been invested in it.

Exactly, this has been my argument the whole time. People are so easily manipulated when it comes to bonsai. Quite frankly, it ticks me off when people repeatedly comment on stock being too expensive(this is in general, not at Nathan), but then they turn around and pay 50%+ more for a similar tree in a ceramic pot with a tad more styling done to it. I wish the bonsai community in General would recognize the value of stock, and good/great stock in particular. We have precious few growers as it is in the states, and if I were one of them, I would read this thread and look at the countless examples of sales and ask myself, "why the hell am I doing this? Why am I spending 10+ years of effort on something that isn't properly appreciated, when I could spit out mediocre trees in pots and sell them for much more?" I would love to see bonsai stock prices match that of japan, where I could afford five new projects a year instead of one, but we will never get there if people keep overrating trees in pots and under rating undeveloped trees. I find it bass ackwards that I can buy a 75+ year old collected ponderosa pine for $50 and I can't get a 2" diameter maple for that. Don't even think of buying decent jbp stock for $50, everyone would laugh you out of the hobby. Ok, I have made my point. On to the subject at hand.

Dario, I think this could be a fun thread if we keep grabbing pics of raw pine stock and discussing future plans for all of them.

 

[Poink88]

The intent of this thread is to educate how this material is to be trained. Just the process...not the value of the tree or its worth.

That said, the discussion about value is educational too. For the record, I agree with Nathan. For ME, it is pricey. I would probably buy something else if I am to part with $600. That doesn't say the stock is not worth $600, maybe it is more but I am just not willing to pay that much for it (I am cheap LOL)

I also admit that I didn't even know this is a corker. Again the side discussion brought additional information and I thank you all for the different input.

 

[Poink88]

...I think this could be a fun thread if we keep grabbing pics of raw pine stock and discussing future plans for all of them.

I agree

Showing different approach might help others understand what to look for in a stock better and how to go about training their trees.

 

[pwk5017]

Number 1 I did not bad mouth anyone I just advised Dario that the tree was pricey and then you jumped at the opportunity to berade me. 2. Korean hornbeams are pretty uncommon and are on quite a few radars and wish lists. Mine happens to be a very nice one if you look at the ones you see it is up there. Lastly I think you are are being way too general in thinking that labor equals money even if the product doesn't reflect the labor. That pine definitely does not have more than 4 hours of labor besides watering and fertilizing of course. If it does than perhaps I will bad mouth a reputable grower because the tree certainly doesn't reflect much work

I didn't berate you, I was trying to understand a common theme I keep seeing. If you look at my earlier post, I even said I wouldn't pay $600 for this because I have no interest in corkbark varieties. Although, since this has more plate bark and no wing bark, it might be of interest to me. Regardless, I think it's a poor example for us to argue over price on. It's rare. It's value is only inherent to a small crowd. I suppose in the same vein, your hornbeam was an excellent example to use. I will state again that I wasn't intending to get into a screaming match with you, but it presented a nice opening for discussing price, and how I think(and it looks like some other experienced and respectable people agree) that there is a disconnect that has existed for a long time. It just upsets me that some bonsai sellers are caught up in that cycle where the consumer will pay more if it's in a pot and raw styled versus the tree having awesome show potential, but it's in an Anderson flat and it has sacrifice branches, so the bonsai seller shifts production to meet the demand for mediocrity in a ceramic pot.

 

[pwk5017]

Ok, I recently purchased a pine, so I will walk you through the few choices I had, and we can discuss who likes what, and futures for all three. I am not saying who I contacted for stock(although I am sure everyone can guess), and I am not getting into prices. These trees arent the same price, but they are all in the same ballpark.

 

[pwk5017]

Tree number two.

 

[pwk5017]

Tree number three.

Ok, these are the three choices I was presented with. Which tree do you like, and what would you do with it? Keep in mind I told the grower before hand that I was looking for a classic informal upright, so all three trees present similar styles at first glance.

 

[nathanbs]

Exactly, this has been my argument the whole time. People are so easily manipulated when it comes to bonsai. Quite frankly, it ticks me off when people repeatedly comment on stock being too expensive(this is in general, not at Nathan), but then they turn around and pay 50%+ more for a similar tree in a ceramic pot with a tad more styling done to it. I wish the bonsai community in General would recognize the value of stock, and good/great stock in particular. We have precious few growers as it is in the states, and if I were one of them, I would read this thread and look at the countless examples of sales and ask myself, "why the hell am I doing this? Why am I spending 10+ years of effort on something that isn't properly appreciated, when I could spit out mediocre trees in pots and sell them for much more?" I would love to see bonsai stock prices match that of japan, where I could afford five new projects a year instead of one, but we will never get there if people keep overrating trees in pots and under rating undeveloped trees. I find it bass ackwards that I can buy a 75+ year old collected ponderosa pine for $50 and I can't get a 2" diameter maple for that. Don't even think of buying decent jbp stock for $50, everyone would laugh you out of the hobby. Ok, I have made my point. On to the subject at hand.

Dario, I think this could be a fun thread if we keep grabbing pics of raw pine stock and discussing future plans for all of them.

I actually know a few growers that are contemplating the mallsai route. If I had to try and pinpoint the problem it's that just because it a JBP or shimpaku that doesnt make it valuable it needs to exhibit signs of great training and age then thousands of dollars are not out if the question. In japan I fear that the nishiki black pine in question would have been trained differently and/or culled from the herd by now. With the same amount of time just more training that tree could be significantly different. Or perhaps with more time it can be but it's way too are to ask for the money he's asking. He's selling truly the first 1-2 inches of trunk and that's it. If I'm going to have to build the rest of this tree from there up I cannot afford to invest $600 into it. I'm going to do all the hard work from here forward. Trust me that it was easy up to this point

 

[nathanbs]

Tree number three.

Ok, these are the three choices I was presented with. Which tree do you like, and what would you do with it? Keep in mind I told the grower before hand that I was looking for a classic informal upright, so all three trees present similar styles at first glance.

It's really hard to see on the first two what's going in but my money is on one of them as I think you can ultimately produce a shorter tree which is what I would prefer.