Japanese white pine (Pinus parviflora) seedlings advice.

[Ykr]

Hello!
In the fall I went crazy buying and collecting different tree seeds for bonsais and to grow full size. I was at a nursery that had 3 large grafted JWP with pine cones on them. I did not know anything about the tree at the time (still very new to the hobby, and it's my first year growing trees from seed), but the trees were beautiful and I asked the nursery employee if I could have the pine cones and she said sure. When I did some research I realized how rare these seeds are but apparently in that situation the seeds are probably not viable so it killed my excitement. I did decide to go ahead in soaking and planting them because I had some extra space. I got around 45 seeds that sank and the rest floated. I planted most up in 2 mini greenhouses in seed starting mix and left them on my porch with the rest of my mini greenhouses to cold stratify (added a photo of the mini greenhouse). I had a few leftover that I just stuck in the fridge and a couple weeks ago I decided to check if there is any life to them and just stuck a couple in a tiny pot on a heat mat and to my surprise they sprouted (see below). At this point should I bring the greenhouses in and let them get a head start on the season (zone 6) or is it too early and just let them do their thing outside. And once they have a few sets of needles how big of a pot should I put them in and what kind of soil has the most success for them? I would like to keep a few for bonsai and a couple for in ground planting.

I do not intend on keeping a lot of them if they sprout. I am looking for a new job so I am likely to relocate and will probably not have space for all the trees and seedlings. So if anyone lives in East Tennessee or SW Virginia and has any interest in JWP seedlings I would be more than happy to give some away (of course if the rest sprout knowing my luck the only two I tested were the only viable ones). I know they could have cross pollinated with something else so can't guarantee purity or anything like that, but I do not plan on charging anything for them passing on the kindness since the nursery employee let me have them. Also have different varieties of trees good for bonsais in the other mini greenhouses, any extras of those I would be more than happy to give away as well.

Any advice on growing these beautiful trees or seedlings in general is appreciated.

Thank you!

 

[Wulfskaar]

Welcome!

I've been growing from seeds since 2020, so I've learned a little bit about that.

I would probably do what worked, which is putting them over the heating pad, but there's nothing wrong with letting nature take it's course outside and letting them sprout when they are ready.

Wait until the first set of real leaves/needles has grown out before you can transfer the seedlings to larger pots. Many people use perlite and peat for growing out seedlings. Once you do that, just let them grow! They should be outside in fresh air and sun. Water when the soil starts drying out. Fertilize lightly until they get bigger.

Keep in mind, it will be years before any of those are bonsai, probably a decade or more.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Do not keep them in the dome, please. Put a net over them, or some wire mesh, but the dome will cause moisture buildup and transpiration issues leading to certain death in most conifers.

 

[Ykr]

Welcome!

I've been growing from seeds since 2020, so I've learned a little bit about that.

I would probably do what worked, which is putting them over the heating pad, but there's nothing wrong with letting nature take it's course outside and letting them sprout when they are ready.

Wait until the first set of real leaves/needles has grown out before you can transfer the seedlings to larger pots. Many people use perlite and peat for growing out seedlings. Once you do that, just let them grow! They should be outside in fresh air and sun. Water when the soil starts drying out. Fertilize lightly until they get bigger.

Keep in mind, it will be years before any of those are bonsai, probably a decade or more.

Thank you for the advice! Any recommendation on the best fertilizer brand for tree seedlings?

Yeah I am in no rush to be honest, this is all just prep. Creating my own little collection of stock trees for the future. Keeping them in pots for years before I do anything with them. Some to bonsai and some to put in the ground. I enjoy watching things grow so it will be fun watching them get bigger for years to come.

Do not keep them in the dome, please. Put a net over them, or some wire mesh, but the dome will cause moisture buildup and transpiration issues leading to certain death in most conifers.

Ohh okay noted, I have Cedar of Lebanon seeds as well I will just take the dome off and cover them all up with the anti-mouse mesh I got to cover my American chestnuts (I know the odds are they won't live but I can't not give them a try).
Thank you

 

[Wulfskaar]

Thank you for the advice! Any recommendation on the best fertilizer brand for tree seedlings?

I'd probably wait until after the first growing season to fertilize seedlings. As far as what type, I'm not sure. I have used solid and liquid fish/seaweed and I honestly can't tell the difference, other than the liquid stuff is required more often.

Some species may like different fertilizers, so you might have to research specifics on that.

Enjoy growing your trees! I have found it to be very personally rewarding.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

As recommended by @Wulfskaar , it is best to keep JWP outdoors only. Sprouting indoors it is difficult to give bright enough light for normal growth. In addition, best growth is with a sharp day-night temperature change. Night should be 10 to 20 F cooler than daytime temps. This temp change allows the accumulation of sugars for growth. Indoors day and night tend to be close to same temperature. This means metabolism at night runs high consuming more sugars than a cooler night would have. This is why many tree species languish indoors even when light seems adequate.

Aditional note, JWP seed tend to be viable for only 18 months stored cool and dry in a refrigerator, meaning germination rate will drop below 50% after 18 months in a refrigerator. Germination rates drop more quickly if stored at room temp. (70 F or 20 C)

Another comment. with pines, ideal cultivars have short needs, deep green to blue green to blue in color. Blue in pines is due to a white waxy coating on the needles that leaves a "blue-ish" color. Wipe the wax off and the needle is green. In addition to to short deep colored needles an ideal cultivar will have straight needles without twisting. Many North American pines have needles that twist on their central axis, noticeable if you follow the lines of stomata on the undersurface of the needles. Twisting is unattractive in bonsai.

The reason the majority of JWP in North America are nurseries are grafted is that the majority of JWP from seed do not meet bonsai standards for attractive pines. They are often yellow-green rather than deep green or blue-green and the "blue" seedlings are very rare. Short needles are not the rule, and most from seed have twisting in their needles . So if you germinate 100 seeds, maybe a couple will be passible for bonsai as far as needle characteristics go. The named cultivars were selected from thousands of seedlings.

I am encouraging you to do grow JWP from seed. But I am also encouraging you to be selective as to which seedlings you grow on to larger plants. Somewhere around 2 year mark you should be able to cull out 90% of the seedlings as less than desirable for bonsai. Especially if you are looking for "blue" JWP you may need to raise hundreds of seedlings to get just a couple.

Interestingly, with JBP and JRP the percentage of seedlings from seed that seem acceptable for bonsai do seem to be higher. Near or over 50%. In part because the "blue" color sought after in JWP is simply not a possibility in JBP or JRP. These 2 species simply don't "do blue". Twisting in the needles is a flaw, and can be selected against.

 

[River's Edge]

the majority of JWP from seed do not meet bonsai standards for attractive pines. They are often yellow-green rather than deep green or blue-green and the "blue" seedlings are very rare

Interesting comment, I have noticed that the seedlings change colour ( deepen darker green first then later a bluish tinge) as they mature. The new growth is always a lighter almost yellow green. For example the batch of JWP seeds I germinated last year have dark green juvenile needles with a bluish tinge, the newest juvenile needles are yellow/ green. One of the other variable is cooler temperatures for the seedlings pushing new needles. I will be interested to see how the seed batches collected from a variety of sites in Japan compare or contrast in needle size, shape and colour development. The seeds I acquired come from three separate areas. Expect there should be some regional differences.
Selecting or acquiring established known cultivars is definitely the best route to ensure the needle size, structure and colour that one might prefer. Also interesting to note the variety of needle shape, size and colour on the JWP shown in Kokufu and Taken Ten that are wild collected trees as opposed to " cultivars" .

 

[tanlu]

I’ve been purchasing Mt Ishizuchi (Shikoku island) JWP seedlings from Julian Adams for years, and recently 3 other JWP seedlings (northern Honshu variety) from another vendor. All of the Ishizuchi JWP seedlings exhibited the typical gorgeous silvery, blue-green needles that are relatively straight and short when grown in bonsai soil. The northern Honshu JWP seedlings had dark green foliage and even shorter short and straight needles reminiscent of Zuisho. I’ve noticed that when grown in-ground, those needle differences start to show a little more, but certainly or not in a way that made them poor candidates for bonsai.

Now, the main risk of growing JWP from seed in North America (at least east of the Mississippi River is the chance of local EWP pollen, which could lead to much longer needles. Julian mentions this issue in his book on pines as have others on this forum. Some JWP seedlings might exhibit yellowish tinge in their foliage during dormancy, but that shouldn’t be considered a flaw since most conifers tend to do this when dormant.

Another reason to be concerned about EWP genes mixing with JWP is that EWP bark takes much longer to mature than that of JWP.

 

[Pinenut]

Hello!
In the fall I went crazy buying and collecting different tree seeds for bonsais and to grow full size. I was at a nursery that had 3 large grafted JWP with pine cones on them. I did not know anything about the tree at the time (still very new to the hobby, and it's my first year growing trees from seed), but the trees were beautiful and I asked the nursery employee if I could have the pine cones and she said sure. When I did some research I realized how rare these seeds are but apparently in that situation the seeds are probably not viable so it killed my excitement. I did decide to go ahead in soaking and planting them because I had some extra space. I got around 45 seeds that sank and the rest floated. I planted most up in 2 mini greenhouses in seed starting mix and left them on my porch with the rest of my mini greenhouses to cold stratify (added a photo of the mini greenhouse). I had a few leftover that I just stuck in the fridge and a couple weeks ago I decided to check if there is any life to them and just stuck a couple in a tiny pot on a heat mat and to my surprise they sprouted (see below). At this point should I bring the greenhouses in and let them get a head start on the season (zone 6) or is it too early and just let them do their thing outside. And once they have a few sets of needles how big of a pot should I put them in and what kind of soil has the most success for them? I would like to keep a few for bonsai and a couple for in ground planting.

I do not intend on keeping a lot of them if they sprout. I am looking for a new job so I am likely to relocate and will probably not have space for all the trees and seedlings. So if anyone lives in East Tennessee or SW Virginia and has any interest in JWP seedlings I would be more than happy to give some away (of course if the rest sprout knowing my luck the only two I tested were the only viable ones). I know they could have cross pollinated with something else so can't guarantee purity or anything like that, but I do not plan on charging anything for them passing on the kindness since the nursery employee let me have them. Also have different varieties of trees good for bonsais in the other mini greenhouses, any extras of those I would be more than happy to give away as well.

Any advice on growing these beautiful trees or seedlings in general is appreciated.

Thank you!

Hello,
You wouldn't happen to have any photos of a Japanese White pine seedling after it shed the seed shell would you?
I question what I purchased was even a pine seeds. What I have germinating has a pair of then leaves. see attached photo

 

[River's Edge]

Hello,
You wouldn't happen to have any photos of a Japanese White pine seedling after it shed the seed shell would you?
I question what I purchased was even a pine seeds. What I have germinating has a pair of then leaves. see attached photo

Your photo is not clear enough to determine. JW Pine seeds develop in the manner depicted shedding the cap and opening with immature leaves as opposed to groups of needles. If you can take a clearer picture I can advise you better. My seedlings are more3 advanced and would not be a good comparison at this point in development.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Your photo is not clear enough to determine. JW Pine seeds develop in the manner depicted shedding the cap and opening with immature leaves as opposed to groups of needles. If you can take a clearer picture I can advise you better. My seedlings are more3 advanced and would not be a good comparison at this point in development.

Click on the picture and it clearly shows 2 cotyledons.

I google image searched "japanese white pine germination" and the pics look like pretty much every other pine I've seen.

It will be interesting to see what these look like once the real leaves emerge.

 

[JeffS73]

First of all, congratulations!! Very few people are successfully growing JWP from seed, so you have a rare commodity there, don't cull a single one.

Some of those will have good characteristics for bonsai, many won't, but it doesn't matter. They can be grown out and used as rootstock for JWP bonsai cultivars like Kokonoe and Zuisho. Even if you can't graft, many can, and many more will be happy to try. What you have is a much, much better rootstock than JBP for bonsai.

You have been given good advice on where they should be, outside. Fertiliser, keep it very weak to start with and don't get it on the foliage. Ideally you want short internodes to begin with so you have options later. Kelp and fulvic acid weekly will be beneficial.

 

[River's Edge]

Yes a

Click on the picture and it clearly shows 2 cotyledons.

I google image searched "japanese white pine germination" and the pics look like pretty much every other pine I've seen.

It will be interesting to see what these look like once the real leaves emerge.

How about rather than check google I just go out in my nursery where I have raised pines for decades from seed. I did click on the picture provided and it raised questions for me because the remaining seed cap looks very much like a JRP seed cap in colour and shape compared to the shape and colour of JWP seed caps..
For my pines the initial cotyledons are usually multiples of five not two. Reference pictures below of JRP germinating with seedling cap remaining. Also pictures of JWP germinated last year. This years crop is still in the Anderson flats, have not emerged yet.
I was simply requesting a clearer look before providing an opinion based on my experience. No worries if the question has been answered.

 

[River's Edge]

Actually6, I went back into my photos and found a picture showing the JWP germinating with multiple cotyledons and very different seed caps remaining.
It is easy to see why I had questions for clarity.. If you click on the picture you can identify the two characteristics I mentioned. JRP and JBP show the same initial characteristics.

 

[Wulfskaar]

@River's Edge I'm just trying to learn something interesting here. I hope I didn't come off as snarky in any way.

The picture just doesn't look like pines that I've seen. I have grown about 5 different types of pines from seeds, and this does not look like any of them to me. Having never grown JWP or JRP, I wondered if they come out looking like the pic below, or if they look like most other pines seedlings.

There are clearly 2 large cotyledons, much like some other trees and veggies I've grown from seed, just not pine. Is it possible that they have somehow fused?

Here is OP's pic blown up a bit.

 

[River's Edge]

The picture just doesn't look like pines that I've seen.

I did not notice a comment reflecting that in your first post.
Actually you seemed to say the opposite! Which raised a question with respect to your response!
"I google image searched "japanese white pine germination" and the pics look like pretty much every other pine I've seen."
Confusing perhaps, no worries!
The picture posted in post #9 does not reflect what JWP seeds look like when germinating.
I would not think " fusion" accounts for the differences in cotyledons and seed shape/colour. Although JWP seeds from various regions do vary in colour, they have a distinctive shape that is larger, broader and bulkier than JBP and JRP.
The seeds I have sourced directly from Japan have all been darker brown to black in colour for JWP, The JRP are often the same colour and shape as the seed caps depicted in Post #9. However the number of cotyledons do not match.
The pictures I posted should provide clarification.
Best in Bonsai

 

[Wulfskaar]

I did not notice a comment reflecting that in your first post.
Actually you seemed to say the opposite! Which raised a question with respect to your response!
"I google image searched "japanese white pine germination" and the pics look like pretty much every other pine I've seen."
Confusing perhaps, no worries!

Yeah, that was confusing.

Some other guys are currently helping me investigate what I have always thought were "Bristlecone pines", that might not be. Because of that, this mystery is very interesting to me and reinforces getting seeds from reputable sources.

 

[clem]

Keep in mind, it will be years before any of those are bonsai, probably a decade or more.

ABE kurakichi said that it takes 40 years to get a mature bark (japanese white pine), and 20 years for it to start cracking.. So, yes, you need to be patient

A pic of my JWP seedlings yesterday, and JBP seedlings in the background ->

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Any advice on growing these beautiful trees or seedlings in general is appreciated.

Welcome to the site! I would check out many of the threads in the Japanese Black Pine from seed contest located here:

The 2018 Six Year Japanese Black Pine Contest

This forum will be for contest participants to track and report on their progress.

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@River's Edge I'm just trying to learn something interesting here. I hope I didn't come off as snarky in any way.

The picture just doesn't look like pines that I've seen. I have grown about 5 different types of pines from seeds, and this does not look like any of them to me. Having never grown JWP or JRP, I wondered if they come out looking like the pic below, or if they look like most other pines seedlings.

There are clearly 2 large cotyledons, much like some other trees and veggies I've grown from seed, just not pine. Is it possible that they have somehow fused?

Here is OP's pic blown up a bit.
View attachment 593886

This is most likely Not a pine seedling. A weed, in that it is not what was expected. Could be spruce, yew, or even an aster. At least my opinion, definitely not JWP. It will take time to tell, as much as a couple years. Only when seedling is mature enough to produce mature needles in bundles will the initial identification be possible. And definitive identification is only possible when the tree is mature enough to produce cones. Cones are the key taxonomic identifier.