Japanese Maple Seeds

[penumbra]

I have 10 different types of Acer palmatum seeds that will be here next week. I have conflicting info on stratification for these dry seeds that were harvested last fall. I have heard and read 5 months warm and three months cold. Dirr says 3 to 5 months cold. If I follow either of these two methods I will have some long stratification periods. I have done a lot of other seeds but not Japanese Maples. I would like to hear from others who have gone down this road. I am really curious also about dusting the seeds with a fungicide since they are maples and will be kept over a significant amount of time before sowing.
Alternately, I have considered building a seedling bed outside and planting the seeds directly and waiting. If I go this route I would probably use pro mix and Napa 8822 blend and cover the bed with wire to keep out my busy squirrels.
Your thoughts?

 

[GGB]

I think your seedling bed is a good way to go. I've recently done the warm,cold, warm cycle with dried seeds, that failed. Then I did just cold strat with green seeds, that was a success but they started growing in the fridge a little early on me. Then I did i started prepping a round of dried seeds to try again and they sprouted a few days after soaking them WTF. After these incredibly mixed results I would just toss all of yours in the ground and see what sprouts this year and see what sprouts next year. In the future I'm only using fresh seed I collect myself because they results were great and free. I'm not a maple expert by any stretch but I have tons of experience sprouting conifers and tropical trees so I wasn't making any glaring errors I'm sure.

P.S we had the exact same "message count" as each other until I posted this. what are the odds?

 

[penumbra]

P.S we had the exact same "message count" as each other until I posted this. what are the odds?

Wow! We are running neck to neck.
I tend to agree with you about the grow bed.

 

[Maloghurst]

I put about 500 JM seeds to germinate in the fridge last October. I put some in a wet paper towel and some just in a plastic bag with a little water and they sprouted at about 4 months. I put some in a sandy perlite and soil mix and they are not doing much but I think I’m starting to see some movement.
Others I put in Anderson flats and I’m letting them do their thing.
I agree safest bet at this time of year is to put them in a bed and let nature take its course otherwise you have to let them sit for another 6-7 months before starting to germinate in the fridge.
Anyway I recommend the wet paper towel or just in a bag with a little water to germinate in the fridge.
If you do that now then timing could be an issue.
im far from an expert though.
I don’t think the fungicide is needed and I dont know if it could hurt anything.

 

[penumbra]

Yeah, I don't know what got into me. Not a good time of year to approach this. I'll build a small raised bed for them this week. If the seeds fail, I will at least have the bed.

 

[penumbra]

Follow up to this. I am another two months behind. Dad broke his hip and Mom was falling apart so I was with them for 6 weeks. Then I had surgery (minor) and I lost a couple more weeks. A buddy just built my seedbed because I was not able to, just last week. Filled now and started soaking seeds today.
Any thoughts on this? Should I just put them in the fridge, warm stratify first, or put them in the bed? As there is 12 varieties it will take a lot of bed space to keep them separated. Alternately, I could put them in small flats which would keep them separate and still enable me to move them without taking up valuable seedbed space. I was somewhat tempted to just throw them all together and see what I get, if anything, but I am curious what seedlings might be produced by which parents as the seeds do vary a lot in both color and size indicating a lot of genetic variability.
I am really vacillating here on my best course and would be interested to know what course others might choose. I don't think I will ever go this route again and this fall I will buy fresh seeds that are still green.

 

[Shibui]

Fresh seed seems to germinate over here without stratification. Older stored seed does need treatment to wake up.
There is no real point keeping the seed separate as very seedling will b a new variety anyway. None can be given the original parent name so no point keeping separate.

Good luck with germination.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

As there is 12 varieties it will take a lot of bed space to keep them separated.

There isn't really a best course of action here, because as you pointed out, assuming all the seeds are Acer palmatum, all seedlings are going to be non-descript varieties. You will get some green leaf, some red leaf, some that share most characteristics with their parent stock, others that vary significantly. The high degree of genetic variability is both a blessing and a curse. It is what allows growers to create so many interesting cultivars... but you can't reproduce the cultivars via seed.

A few weeks ago I was at a grower's house who had numerous adult JM in landscape around his property. Many were seed-grown that he had set aside as having interesting qualities. His favorite JM is one he grew from seed and it grows in a informal upright weeping style that is quite attractive. The grower likes to climb into the branches and sit and read books

 

[penumbra]

There is no real point keeping the seed separate as very seedling will b a new variety anyway. None can be given the original parent name so no point keeping separate.

I expressed why I want to keep them separate. It is an experiment. I have no interest in duplicating the parent trees in name and form. I am interested in the genetic variability. If you look up most JM cultivars, the parent names (or crosses) are usually mentioned.
As an example, I have a A P Viridis I planted about 30 years ago that is around 20 feet tall. I have about a dozen seedlings from it and they vary quite a bit. Some are more toothed, some more divided and one out of these looked exactly like the parent. I actually gave that one to a friend who just bought a new house.

 

[penumbra]

all the seeds are Acer palmatum, all seedlings are going to be non-descript varieties. You will get some green leaf, some red leaf, some that share most characteristics with their parent stock, others that vary significantly. The high degree of genetic variability is both a blessing and a curse. It is what allows growers to create so many interesting cultivars

This is what I am interested in.

 

[Forsoothe!]

After these incredibly mixed results I would just toss all of yours in the ground and see what sprouts this year and see what sprouts next year. In the future I'm only using fresh seed I collect myself because they results were great and free.

Yes, same here.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Filled now and started soaking seeds today.

cmeg can help if he's listening...

I buy cheap plastic dishpans from the dollar store and melt 20 penny nail holes in them with a bernz-a-matic torch that allows me to keep batches of seeds separate and transportable. Open pollinated seeds, especially JM are going to be all over the map, which is wonderful. The best viability will come from a seed parent close to the species, and least viable from cultivars more genetically distant from the species. The trees don't move, so I have developed a list of local trees at cemeteries, office buildings, industrial parks, et al, that I visit every year. Sometimes, they skip a year.

 

[Pitoon]

I have 10 different types of Acer palmatum seeds that will be here next week. I have conflicting info on stratification for these dry seeds that were harvested last fall. I have heard and read 5 months warm and three months cold. Dirr says 3 to 5 months cold. If I follow either of these two methods I will have some long stratification periods. I have done a lot of other seeds but not Japanese Maples. I would like to hear from others who have gone down this road. I am really curious also about dusting the seeds with a fungicide since they are maples and will be kept over a significant amount of time before sowing.
Alternately, I have considered building a seedling bed outside and planting the seeds directly and waiting. If I go this route I would probably use pro mix and Napa 8822 blend and cover the bed with wire to keep out my busy squirrels.
Your thoughts?

For what it's worth this is how I do my JM seeds.....

First thing I do is to remove all debris, rocks, twigs, etc… from the seed batch. Then I soak the seeds overnight. Usually they should all drop once hydrated. If not I drain the water and put fresh water for another night, usually the second night will get the rest to drop if they are viable. I drain the water and rinse the seeds one last time. Then I put the seeds aside.

I then take a "Bounty" paper towel fold it up several times and wet it out completely. Then I squeeze it to the point no water comes out. I unfold it and place the seeds centered on the paper towel fold the paper towel over the seeds completely and the place them inside a ziplock back. I write what they are or where they came from and the date and place in the fridge. (While in the fridge I check usually once a week to see if any mold develops. If so I rub the seeds on the paper towel, rinse them, and then place on a new paper towel....this continues until they germinate.)

I leave them in the fridge until I see several seeds begin to germinate and send out their tap root. I continue to leave them inside the ziplock bag until I see several of the seedlings exit their seed casing completely. At this time I pull all the seeds out and sow them in a flat. I use a mixture that I make that consists of peat moss/sand/vermiculite (6 parts - 4 parts – 4parts) I mix dry then spray to dampen the surface then mix again to distribute to the entire mixture.

At this point I place them the shelf of my seed station and let them do their thing. When I see they push out their first set of true leaves and look strong they have past the stage of damping off. I let them grow usually until I see their second set begin to emerge, then I start the replanting process.

*My seed station is in my basement that is a cool constant temperature about 65degrees

*Try your best to keep the all leaves dry, until the first set of true leaves emerge

*If damp off starts remove the dying seedlings that are infected immediately, watch the rest closely


Here's what my seed station looks like




From left to right:
Small seed Japanese Maple - Large seed Japanese Maple - Small seed Japanese Maple (collected at US Arboretum)




Close up of the small seed Japanese Maples, I would say they is well over 1,000 seedlings here and past due to repot.




Here i'm potting up the large seed Japanese Maples into 50 cell trays. They will stay in the trays until they fill up the entire cell with roots, then they will get moved up to 2.5in pots



Here are Bloodgood seeds I collected last fall. They were dried out and stored. They were rehydrated and placed into the fridge 17FEB20, I just took this picture today (05JUN20) so you can see it has taken almost 4 months to germinate. These will stay another week or so in the fridge and then get sown into a flat.

 

[Pitoon]

Here's what I have planted so far this season for Japanese Maples.....

Here's roughly 400 seedlings, still have the other flat to pot up and more to sow




In regards to you mentioning about variety.....here's a seedling I noticed that caught my eye. Notice the first leaf that emerged has a pointy lobe that is elongated and not the typical palmate shape.




Notice the second leaf that is coming is identical to the first...…I have tagged this seedling and will track it. If the next several leaves appear the same this may be a new cultivar. Of course I would still have several years to see what the mature leaves look like and document it's growth habit. Pretty exciting as these seeds came from the US Arboretum, who knows what the cross would be as they have Japanese Maples all over the place.

 

[penumbra]

Thank you for this Pitoon. More than half my seeds have imbued enough water to sink in the past 6 or 7 hours. I usually don't use the paper towel method but I am willing to give it a try.
Thank you to all.

 

[Arlithrien]

I usually will soak my seeds in luke warm water with a tiny bit of liquid kelp, inside a yeti container to maintain the warm temps as long as possible. I take the seeds out after they've sunk then put them in the fridge and check on them routinely. If I see mold growing, I will spray with some fungicide and one treatment seems to keep them mold free indefinitely.

From what I've found from last year, fresh maple seeds are far more likely to germinate than dried ones. To the point that most of my fresh Arakawa and osakazuki seeds germinated while some dried generic red JM seeds from ebay had a 0% germination rate from some 300 seeds.

In terms of unique leaf shapes I have found the first two sets of true leaves tend to look generic and after that they start looking more like their true shape.

 

[bangsaturday]

First thing I do is to remove all debris, rocks, twigs, etc… from the seed batch. Then I soak the seeds overnight. Usually they should all drop once hydrated. If not I drain the water and put fresh water for another night, usually the second night will get the rest to drop if they are viable. I drain the water and rinse the seeds one last time. Then I put the seeds aside.

I then take a "Bounty" paper towel fold it up several times and wet it out completely. Then I squeeze it to the point no water comes out. I unfold it and place the seeds centered on the paper towel fold the paper towel over the seeds completely and the place them inside a ziplock back. I write what they are or where they came from and the date and place in the fridge. (While in the fridge I check usually once a week to see if any mold develops. If so I rub the seeds on the paper towel, rinse them, and then place on a new paper towel....this continues until they germinate.)

I leave them in the fridge until I see several seeds begin to germinate and send out their tap root. I continue to leave them inside the ziplock bag until I see several of the seedlings exit their seed casing completely. At this time I pull all the seeds out and sow them in a flat. I use a mixture that I make that consists of peat moss/sand/vermiculite (6 parts - 4 parts – 4parts) I mix dry then spray to dampen the surface then mix again to distribute to the entire mixture.

At this point I place them the shelf of my seed station and let them do their thing. When I see they push out their first set of true leaves and look strong they have past the stage of damping off. I let them grow usually until I see their second set begin to emerge, then I start the replanting process.

*My seed station is in my basement that is a cool constant temperature about 65degrees

*Try your best to keep the all leaves dry, until the first set of true leaves emerge

*If damp off starts remove the dying seedlings that are infected immediately, watch the rest closely

Thank you Pitoon for your experiential insights.

1. When do you begin fertilizing for the young ones?
2. Do JM take Osmocote slow release fertilizers well?
3. Do young JM seedlings prefer a moist soil media, or will an inorganic soil mix (pumice, akadama, lava rock) do?
4. What is your watering routine like? 90% dry out before watering? or a fixed timing (eg. once every 2 days)

 

[Shibui]

1. When do you begin fertilizing for the young ones?
2. Do JM take Osmocote slow release fertilizers well?
3. Do young JM seedlings prefer a moist soil media, or will an inorganic soil mix (pumice, akadama, lava rock) do?
4. What is your watering routine like? 90% dry out before watering? or a fixed timing (eg. once every 2 days)

Some growers wait for a few weeks but I fertilize from the time the real leaves open.
Osmocote is good for all species and JM do well with osmocote. Just don't put too much on as (some - older type) Osmocote can release extra fert in warm weather. In your climate that could possibly cause nutrient toxicity when it is warm and wet.
JM, both young and older, prefer moist conditions. If they dry out the leaves can burn and turn brown. Hot winds are even worse. They will be happy in any soil type provided you can still provide enough water. Soil mix that holds too much water could still cause problems so better to use a well drained soil type and water more.
JM probably won't like 90% dry but when you start out fixed timing watering is not good. Always check soil and water when the plant needs it rather than fixed time. Later when you know how your soil dries out and how much the plants use you will be able to predict drying in your climate at different times of the year and then work out a schedule.
Down here it is probably drier in summer but, with the soil mix I use, I need to water maples twice each day in hot weather but rarely water at all in winter because we get regular rain. I believe Bali has more rain in warmer weather so your watering will be completely different.

 

[Pitoon]

Thank you Pitoon for your experiential insights.

1. When do you begin fertilizing for the young ones?

Several months after they have germinated. This allows the root system to develop a little more.

2. Do JM take Osmocote slow release fertilizers well?

Yes, Osmocote works very well, but don't over do it. A little goes a long ways. Applying to much would/could burn them when the temps go up. If you have access to Osmocote Plus use that one. Reapply after 3 months.

3. Do young JM seedlings prefer a moist soil media, or will an inorganic soil mix (pumice, akadama, lava rock) do?

JM in general prefer substrates moist (not wet or soggy). You need to decide what substrate will work best for you in your location, climate, weather......this may be trial and error. They grow equally well in either organic or inorganic substrates. Just remember what you use will determine how the roots will look and grow.

4. What is your watering routine like? 90% dry out before watering? or a fixed timing (eg. once every 2 days)

There is no schedule, I water when the substrate on top is dry. All my plants/trees are outside so the weather has a big say on when I water. Sometimes I need to water everyday sometimes once a week. It all depends. The best thing to do is know your substrate, watch the weather, check your plants/trees daily. The plants will tell you when they are getting to little or to much water.


On a side note your location says Indonesia. If you are physically there and try to grow them there you may run to issues. JM is a deciduous species and require a dormant period (ie...winter).