Japanese Black Pine reverse taper problem

[michang05]

The wire scaring methods produces trees with zero value in Asia. Its what they sell to gullible Westerners. As for 15 years.....I have to be very honest.... I say its about 3 or 4. These grow like weeds in Japan and Korea. My rea concern is overwintering If this tree is from Okinawa you may be okay but even Kyushu is so much colder than Phil that its going to be an issue. Keep an eye on it and keep it at as low as possible temps in winter. (Your cool season)

yeah, grown in pot in Japan and that is the result . It is somewhat winter here (rainy season) , I hope this will still be fine a year after a full season goes. Summer starts here March- June

 

[BunjaeKorea]

yeah, grown in pot in Japan and that is the result . It is somewhat winter here (rainy season) , I hope this will still be fine a year after a full season goes. Summer starts here March- June

one thing to remember is that we have a rainy season here too but these pines grow in really well draining soils, and in volcanic rock. So in the rainy season make sure that the pot drains really well. Pine rely on a symbiotic fungus and it dies when they get waterlogged. Dead fungus means dead pine. If it survives the temp difference the water is going to be another issue. The good thing is they dont mind humidity but need air flow. (Red pie are less keen on the humidity). I hope it goes well, keep us updated

 

[michang05]

one thing to remember is that we have a rainy season here too but these pines grow in really well draining soils, and in volcanic rock. So in the rainy season make sure that the pot drains really well. Pine rely on a symbiotic fungus and it dies when they get waterlogged. Dead fungus means dead pine. If it survives the temp difference the water is going to be another issue. The good thing is they dont mind humidity but need air flow. (Red pie are less keen on the humidity). I hope it goes well, keep us updated

thanks, yes, Im using a good draining medium, mostly pumice as advised by the local nursery here. https://www.facebook.com/matsuphilippines

 

[BunjaeKorea]

thanks, yes, Im using a good draining medium, mostly pumice as advised by the local nursery here. https://www.facebook.com/matsuphilippines

Pumice works well.

 

[michang05]

Pumice works well.

Indeed, I have a nice mixture of CnS that I sometimes add, it drains well from my experience

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Indeed, I have a nice mixture of CnS that I sometimes add, it drains well from my experience

Cool, pumice keeps good airflow in the roots and harmful gases get lost easily when watering. Pine in general do well in in organic soils

 

[michang05]

Cool, pumice keeps good airflow in the roots and harmful gases get lost easily when watering. Pine in general do well in in organic soils

Not gonna use that here though maybe some for feeding purposes.

Btw, can the JBP tolerate up to what heat in celsius? Our summer gets up to ~39 here

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Not gonna use that here though maybe some for feeding purposes.

Btw, can the JBP tolerate up to what heat in celsius? Our summer gets up to ~39 here

Inorganic I meant sorry typo. They will be fine. Their natural range (China, Korea, Japan) gets to those temps. As long as they have airflow they are fine

 

[michang05]

Inorganic I meant sorry typo. They will be fine. Their natural range (China, Korea, Japan) gets to those temps. As long as they have airflow they are fine

Hehe i knew it.

Awesome, that's what they say it here but for JWP no chance

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Hehe i knew it.

Awesome, that's what they say it here but for JWP no chance

Right but the problem is that your winters are way too warm, they really need a low hibernation temp

 

[michang05]

Right but the problem is that your winters are way too warm, they really need a low hibernation temp

You mean the jwp right?

 

[BunjaeKorea]

You mean the jwp right?

right

 

[michang05]

well, thanks everyone for the suggestions and advise. I like this JBP plus my Baobab seedlings for now, I still have other native stuff that I'm taking care of but these two tops them all.

"Salamat" (Thanks)

 

[bwaynef]

I got this from a nursery and the picture below was an import from Japan and was said to be grown from its pot ~15yrs

Its been mentioned, but I just wanted to state it outright: I don't believe this pine was imported from Japan, nor 15 years old. I believe someone at the nursery was not telling the whole truth. 4-5 years is a decent estimate from seed. ***MAYBE*** the seed was imported from Japan, but the quality of trees exported from Japan, while it isn't usually Kokufu-level, is much better quality than this.

I don't say any of this to mock you or your tree. I'm saying this so you know that you're dealing with folks who haven't been honest with you.

 

[michang05]

Its been mentioned, but I just wanted to state it outright: I don't believe this pine was imported from Japan, nor 15 years old. I believe someone at the nursery was not telling the whole truth. 4-5 years is a decent estimate from seed. ***MAYBE*** the seed was imported from Japan, but the quality of trees exported from Japan, while it isn't usually Kokufu-level, is much better quality than this.

I don't say any of this to mock you or your tree. I'm saying this so you know that you're dealing with folks who haven't been honest with you.

I'll show this to them for them to get an idea.

Im a newbie in bonsai, i like this tree, unfortunately i got rigged many times yet this was the most expensive one.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I would ground layer this thing putting the whole straight section underground. Cure or kill it.

 

[bwaynef]

I'll show this to them for them to get an idea.

Im a newbie in bonsai, i like this tree, unfortunately i got rigged many times yet this was the most expensive one.

Take a look at the JBP in 6 years contest entries on this forum. They're all 2+ years in, from seed. Judge their progress against the development of your tree. https://www.bonsainut.com/forums/the-2018-six-year-japanese-black-pine-contest.73/

 

[michang05]

Take a look at the JBP in 6 years contest entries on this forum. They're all 2+ years in, from seed. Judge their progress against the development of your tree. https://www.bonsainut.com/forums/the-2018-six-year-japanese-black-pine-contest.73/

Im good, what can i do now is to take care so im just accepting this another con in the bonsai community.

 

[Shibui]

Is it true for 1cm of trunk thickness you need 1m of sacrificial branch length in this case 5meters (hope to get more secondary branches and more)

I do not know if there is such a rule.
I believe that thickening is not only about length of sacrifice but on total numbers of leaves. The 5 m could be a single long branch, a branch with 5 x 1m shoots or 5 separate branches growing from the trunk or other combinations.
It can also be obtained by growing several different sacrifice branches over several years - more difficult with pines as they don't always sprout convenient new shoots.
Some of the lower trunk thickness will also come from the branches above it. All the sacrifice branch does is add extra thickness to the lower section so it does not have to supply the full 5cm thickness.

Pines grow very different from many other species so you do need to be aware of some problems that sacrifice branches could cause in pines.
Apical dominance: tall shoots get preference for resources. If they grow really well the rest of the tree can suffer and even die back leaving just the sacrifice branch. If I notice the other part I really want looking weak I cut the sacrifice right away to send energy back to the tree i want to keep.
Back budding: pines do not do this well so you must retain viable shoots and buds in places you will need to grow in future. Do not let all branches grow unrestrained for too long.

 

[michang05]

I do not know if there is such a rule.
I believe that thickening is not only about length of sacrifice but on total numbers of leaves. The 5 m could be a single long branch, a branch with 5 x 1m shoots or 5 separate branches growing from the trunk or other combinations.
It can also be obtained by growing several different sacrifice branches over several years - more difficult with pines as they don't always sprout convenient new shoots.
Some of the lower trunk thickness will also come from the branches above it. All the sacrifice branch does is add extra thickness to the lower section so it does not have to supply the full 5cm thickness.

Pines grow very different from many other species so you do need to be aware of some problems that sacrifice branches could cause in pines.
Apical dominance: tall shoots get preference for resources. If they grow really well the rest of the tree can suffer and even die back leaving just the sacrifice branch. If I notice the other part I really want looking weak I cut the sacrifice right away to send energy back to the tree i want to keep.
Back budding: pines do not do this well so you must retain viable shoots and buds in places you will need to grow in future. Do not let all branches grow unrestrained for too long.

I see, really is a balance. I'm still confused on when to start doing the pruning/decandling etc. Since most of what i read is for countries with 4 seasons. In my case Philippines like i said here only has 2 season wet and dry, currently we're still said to be on a wet season our cold months until Feb.

When do I :
Decandle
Prune neeedles
Repot
Fertilize