Is inverse taper a deal-breaker for you?

Many times have seen and now consider to be nonsensical adage. How does knowing rules change or enhance fact of ignoring same? Or results?🤔 Gobbledegook.

I had a problem when reading this as well.

"you need to understand the rules before you break them."

It's rather incomplete, empty.

Though I find everyone's reasons for accepting reverse taper quite ...human and extraordinary, I think we are pandering to a Western idea of acceptance rather than doing the work.

We shouldn't accept things for reasons we make up, we should do the work necessary to make all the other aspects of the tree so great, the broken rule goes unnoticed, or is artistically utilized.

"Artistically" blending rather thoroughly with what God makes.

Sorce
 
I had a problem when reading this as well.

"you need to understand the rules before you break them."

It's rather incomplete, empty.
To me, this phrase simply means that if you understand the rules, then when you break them, you also understand and accept that there can very likely be consequences afterwards. Consequences that are good and/or bad.

Bonsai practitioners cannot do whatever we want to a tree, then get mad afterwards if we happen to make it look "ugly" or even kill it as a result. Pretty much whenever you hear that someone is "thinking outside the box", they are in essence operating outside of the rules. They likely understand the rules for the given situation, but are choosing to break them.

If you're well-versed in the established/proven rules and techniques, it makes you better-equipped to break them or operate outside them. This is how we've ended up with almost every technical advancement of the human race. Yes, many new things are discovered by accident (looking at you, Penicillin), but much advancement comes from those who are already very knowledgeable in a given field.

In the other direction, we have those who are simply unaware of the rules. Then we end up with the saying Ignorantia juris non excusat, which basically means "Ignorance of the law is not an excuse." A driver can't do 55 mph in a school zone just because they aren't aware that it's a school zone. A cop would still issue a ticket, despite the driver's ignorance of the law. Bonsai novices (myself included in this group) often break the rules simply out of ignorance, not because they're trying to pioneer a new technique.
 
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Many times have seen and now consider to be nonsensical adage. How does knowing rules change or enhance fact of ignoring same? Or results?🤔 Gobbledegook.
I think in this case, the point is that "knowing the rules" is more than just memorizing them but rather you fully understand them and have proved that knowledge with execution.
 
Many times have seen and now consider to be nonsensical adage. How does knowing rules change or enhance fact of ignoring same? Or results?🤔 Gobbledegook.
This is posturing pure and simple. The meaning is plain, simple. This is a rather typical response to simply not wanting to follow rules...It's a false argument. There are no rules, really. The "rules" are a set of artistic aids, primarily visual, that are used to make bonsai. Understanding those techniques leads to better bonsai. Once understood, things like foreshortening, forced perspective, optimal branch placement and other optical illusions that enhance human visual perception, can be manipulated --as in "break."

This argument has been used in other arts, as well. The best artists that broke the rules understood the basics and manipulate those techniques
 
Rules exist as guidelines for what is acceptable, generally. The rules form a framework within which the whole of something is worthy. You follow the rules until such time as you see something that as an alternative is good enough to be better than to stay within the framework of the rules. It's always a case-by-case question, and of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or the judge, whichever is sought to be pleased.
 
Like I said, “I’m not saying it’s not valid to just like the tree this way. It absolutely is perfectly valid to style your tree however it pleases you.” The rest is contingent on what you’re trying to achieve with your practice of bonsai.
I agree. My "thing" , I guess is that , if indeed bonsai is an artform, it should actually have no rules. My definition (not THEE definition) of art is that it's the expression of the artist.......good or bad. That art either succeeds or fails on it's merit. Now if a person is into the traditional practices of bonsai, then yes, there are rules for that.

Here's a rather mundane analogy. The Classic American Hambuger: A soft bun with mayo, mustard, pickles, onions, lettuce, tomatoes and a ground beef patty. Maybe not exactly, but pretty close. Now, YOUR idea of a hamburger might be just the onions , mustard and beef patty. There are some that would say that's not a REAL hamburger. I say it is, just different.
 
This conversation is too assumptive to not get into so many other topics....

Is it art or not?
Are you a hobbyist or an "artist"?
What's your favorite hamburger?

I don't believe an artist works for themselves. They make something of themselves that is enjoyable for the people.

It can probably be scientifically proven that this "doing for others" is more satisfying than doing for oneself.

I wish we could have a conversation without assumptions.

"Ignorance of the law is not an excuse."

This has been a foolish concept to me for a long time, since a sane society can't reasonably ask for a following of laws that aren't specifically taught.

Well, allegiance to our Country used to be enough I guess.

.........

If it is an art, it is an art with a specific purpose, and if that purpose is not held, it is no longer "Bonsai". IMO.

Sorce
 
This conversation is too assumptive to not get into so many other topics....

Is it art or not?
Are you a hobbyist or an "artist"?
What's your favorite hamburger?

I don't believe an artist works for themselves. They make something of themselves that is enjoyable for the people.

It can probably be scientifically proven that this "doing for others" is more satisfying than doing for oneself.

I wish we could have a conversation without assumptions.



This has been a foolish concept to me for a long time, since a sane society can't reasonably ask for a following of laws that aren't specifically taught.

Well, allegiance to our Country used to be enough I guess.

.........

If it is an art, it is an art with a specific purpose, and if that purpose is not held, it is no longer "Bonsai". IMO.

Sorce
I agree with this:

"I don't believe an artist works for themselves. They make something of themselves that is enjoyable for the people."

That is what bonsai is. It isn't about trees. Bonsai is communicating with other people about nature. That "vocabulary" is mostly "the rules" that amplify and hone a tree's ability to speak to the viewer. Ignoring that vocabulary can result in gibberish. Knowledgably Re-interpreting the vocabulary can lead to new ways for a tree to speak to the viewer.
 
.........

If it is an art, it is an art with a specific purpose, and if that purpose is not held, it is no longer "Bonsai". IMO.

Sorce
I would say that all bonsai have a specific purpose. Mine is to please my sense of aesthetics. I'm pretty sure I would do bonsai if I were all alone on this planet.

Picture a Neanderthal sitting by a fire umpteen thousand years ago. He's got a full belly ( not a real common condition) and he spies a chunk of bone that kinda looks like a deer. He takes a rock and scrapes off a few unwanted areas and now it looks a lot more like a deer. That, my friends, is true art. No buyers, no critics, no rules, just a true expression of the artist. I think humans have had a lot more of that type of expression in their history than what's currently in vogue.
 
What's your favorite hamburger?
I like mine with lettuce and tomato,
Heinz 57 and French fried potatoes.
Big Kosher pickle and a cold draft beer,
Well good God Almighty, which way do I steer...
for my cheeseburger in paradise?
 
I would say that all bonsai have a specific purpose. Mine is to please my sense of aesthetics. I'm pretty sure I would do bonsai if I were all alone on this planet.

Picture a Neanderthal sitting by a fire umpteen thousand years ago. He's got a full belly ( not a real common condition) and he spies a chunk of bone that kinda looks like a deer. He takes a rock and scrapes off a few unwanted areas and now it looks a lot more like a deer. That, my friends, is true art. No buyers, no critics, no rules, just a true expression of the artist. I think humans have had a lot more of that type of expression in their history than what's currently in vogue.
Well, see that's problematic. Neandethals and other neolithic humanoids weren't making art for themselves or searching for their "own" "true" form of expression. They were communicating with others (including primarily with their deities) using abstract and realistic symbols. They weren't just doing it because they wanted a cool figure of a deer to play with.

Art is has always been a communicative thing.
 
Well, see that's problematic. Neandethals and other neolithic humanoids weren't making art for themselves or searching for their "own" "true" form of expression. They were communicating with others (including primarily with their deities) using abstract and realistic symbols. They weren't just doing it because they wanted a cool figure of a deer to play with.

Art is has always been a communicative thing.
Just did a Google search, and it appears archeologists believe Neanderthals did practice art, but not what modern people interpret as art. Selling, showing, comparing, communicating, etc. is the result of art, not the reason it exists. IMHO. Your opinion may differ, and that's OK.
 
Onions.
Lot's of onions.
2 slices of tomato, mustard and mayo, grill the meat in LOTS of pepper burnt on the outside and raw in the middle.
Beer? What are you buying?
 
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