Is ground layering pines feasible?

[Veebs]

Specifically I’m talking about loblolly, but I’ve been working a number of pines in my back yard in crappy clay, and I’ve already seen one of my favorite pines has roots running for the hills, so I’m nervous about being able to collect it.

However, I could easily set up a ground layering. Is this likely to be met with success with pines?

(I’m familiar with the tactic of working the roots while still in the ground to try to promote fine fibrous roots near the trunk, and I’m already trying to do this but I’m looking for alternatives as the soil quality presents challenges.)

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Ground layering pines is not often successful.
A strong and young plant might produce a couple roots from a buried trunk, but it's more of an exception than a rule.

I use pond baskets in the ground so the roots have some constriction happening to them, making the ground growing easier to manage hopefully.

 

[River's Edge]

I’m familiar with the tactic of working the roots while still in the ground to try to promote fine fibrous roots near the trunk, and I’m already trying to do this but I’m looking for alternatives as the soil quality presents challenge

Suggest you focus on this approach. CHANGE IT UP A BIT BY EXCAVATING A FEW SECTIONS AND IMPROVING THE SOIL MIX IN TOSE SECTIONS. visualize it as a pie and deal with a slice or two at a time, Replacing very poor soil ( clay) with a better mix will promote feeder roots in those areas. Then when you collect the tree you will have some strong sections to support the weaker areas when you change out the clay. Its only time and effort.
Ground layering pines is feasible but very unreliable as noted by others.

 

[Veebs]

Suggest you focus on this approach. CHANGE IT UP A BIT BY EXCAVATING A FEW SECTIONS AND IMPROVING THE SOIL MIX IN TOSE SECTIONS. visualize it as a pie and deal with a slice or two at a time, Replacing very poor soil ( clay) with a better mix will promote feeder roots in those areas. Then when you collect the tree you will have some strong sections to support the weaker areas when you change out the clay. Its only time and effort.
Ground layering pines is feasible but very unreliable as noted by others.

I like this suggestion, but I also just thought of an alternative, which would be to get a bunch of loblolly seedlings (the tree in question is either a slash pine or a loblolly) and begin root grafts around some ideal point on the tree. If I let those take for a couple years, I can just cut the trunk like an air layer, right?

 

[River's Edge]

I like this suggestion, but I also just thought of an alternative, which would be to get a bunch of loblolly seedlings (the tree in question is either a slash pine or a loblolly) and begin root grafts around some ideal point on the tree. If I let those take for a couple years, I can just cut the trunk like an air layer, right?

The idea of being able to manage care of root grafts on a tree that is not yet collected? IE: not likely within easy watering distance. Root grafts using seedlings or sapling consist of small juvenile roots near the surface, which dry out quickly unless under constant care. Would not be my choice. Just an opinion mind you. Perhaps the tree is easily accessible and [lenty of time is available to maintain root grafts.

 

[Veebs]

The idea of being able to manage care of root grafts on a tree that is not yet collected? IE: not likely within easy watering distance. Root grafts using seedlings or sapling consist of small juvenile roots near the surface, which dry out quickly unless under constant care. Would not be my choice. Just an opinion mind you. Perhaps the tree is easily accessible and [lenty of time is available to maintain root grafts.

It’s behind my back fence. I’ve got like 200 slash or loblolly pines back there I’ve been pruning. It is about 60 feet from my faucet with a 75-ft hose.

 

[River's Edge]

It’s behind my back fence. I’ve got like 200 slash or loblolly pines back there I’ve been pruning. It is about 60 feet from my faucet with a 75-ft hose.

Then that is an option, would suggest moss covering and additional soil level above the root grafts to make things easier for watering routine.
Best of luck! Would be interested in how the root grafting on a pine works out. Have not seen that before.

 

[Veebs]

Then that is an option, would suggest moss covering and additional soil level above the root grafts to make things easier for watering routine.
Best of luck! Would be interested in how the root grafting on a pine works out. Have not seen that before.

I will probably take your suggestion in addition to attempting the root grafts, because improving the soil should improved the vigor of the tree and I need that to have good odds of root graft success.

Also, since I’ll be doing this with a number of seedlings, I’ll ensure they have decent size pots for the root mass to expand and for better moisture retention.

Your suggestion about getting soil above the graft points is interesting and I’ll need to think through a solution. I has been planning to essentially approach this the same as approach grafting a seedling as a branch except that in the end I’d be keeping the bottom instead of the top of the seedling. So that would mean I’d have several pots attached to the tree (sitting on the ground). To take your suggestion, I either need to do the grafting lower than planned so that the seedling pots sit below the soil and I pile soil above the to cover the grafts, or I need to suspend some soil/sphangnum around the graft points like you would bag an air layer.

An interesting challenge…

 

[River's Edge]

I will probably take your suggestion in addition to attempting the root grafts, because improving the soil should improved the vigor of the tree and I need that to have good odds of root graft success.

Also, since I’ll be doing this with a number of seedlings, I’ll ensure they have decent size pots for the root mass to expand and for better moisture retention.

Your suggestion about getting soil above the graft points is interesting and I’ll need to think through a solution. I has been planning to essentially approach this the same as approach grafting a seedling as a branch except that in the end I’d be keeping the bottom instead of the top of the seedling. So that would mean I’d have several pots attached to the tree (sitting on the ground). To take your suggestion, I either need to do the grafting lower than planned so that the seedling pots sit below the soil and I pile soil above the to cover the grafts, or I need to suspend some soil/sphangnum around the graft points like you would bag an air layer.

An interesting challenge…

If you are planning to graft roots higher up than the existing nebari than the pots will be needed. Also consider how you will secure the pots so they do not move and affect the graft portion. I have seen approach grafts in pots secured a number of ways. The most common is a metal rod stuck in the ground.
You will need to plan ahead to place a bend in the seedlings to match the position you wish to graft. This also affects where you can secure the pot and how big the seedlings or saplings need to be. You will have trouble making the grafted roots look natural if the length of the grafted scion is quite long before the rooted portion begins. This part needs to be thought through very carefully as you are intending to keep the bottom portion instead of the top portion as is the common situation with approach grafting higher up.
The simplest would be to nestle the seedlings in the existing soil and root system for grafting at the existing soil level and then covering up as I suggested earlier.

 

[Veebs]

If you are planning to graft roots higher up than the existing nebari than the pots will be needed. Also consider how you will secure the pots so they do not move and affect the graft portion. I have seen approach grafts in pots secured a number of ways. The most common is a metal rod stuck in the ground.
You will need to plan ahead to place a bend in the seedlings to match the position you wish to graft. This also affects where you can secure the pot and how big the seedlings or saplings need to be. You will have trouble making the grafted roots look natural if the length of the grafted scion is quite long before the rooted portion begins. This part needs to be thought through very carefully as you are intending to keep the bottom portion instead of the top portion as is the common situation with approach grafting higher up.
The simplest would be to nestle the seedlings in the existing soil and root system for grafting at the existing soil level and then covering up as I suggested earlier.

Thanks this is very helpful.

 

[Veebs]

If you are planning to graft roots higher up than the existing nebari than the pots will be needed. Also consider how you will secure the pots so they do not move and affect the graft portion. I have seen approach grafts in pots secured a number of ways. The most common is a metal rod stuck in the ground.
You will need to plan ahead to place a bend in the seedlings to match the position you wish to graft. This also affects where you can secure the pot and how big the seedlings or saplings need to be. You will have trouble making the grafted roots look natural if the length of the grafted scion is quite long before the rooted portion begins. This part needs to be thought through very carefully as you are intending to keep the bottom portion instead of the top portion as is the common situation with approach grafting higher up.
The simplest would be to nestle the seedlings in the existing soil and root system for grafting at the existing soil level and then covering up as I suggested earlier.

Hi Frank, thanks so much for all your advice so far. I’ve been watching the very few videos I could find on root grafting for pines and it seems as though people are making nearly-horizontal grooves. That seems counter intuitive to me, I’d think you’d want closer to vertical. Is a shallow angle actually the right technique?

Also, I know you’ve said pines like dry feet. I was thinking of taking a large cloth grow bag — I have a few 25-gals lying around — and cutting it down the middle on one side so I can get it around the tred and then securing it back, so I’d have one level of soil for all the grafts, and they could extend more. But I’m concerned that might result in the soil staying too wet. What do you think?

 

[River's Edge]

Hi Frank, thanks so much for all your advice so far. I’ve been watching the very few videos I could find on root grafting for pines and it seems as though people are making nearly-horizontal grooves. That seems counter intuitive to me, I’d think you’d want closer to vertical. Is a shallow angle actually the right technique?

Also, I know you’ve said pines like dry feet. I was thinking of taking a large cloth grow bag — I have a few 25-gals lying around — and cutting it down the middle on one side so I can get it around the tred and then securing it back, so I’d have one level of soil for all the grafts, and they could extend more. But I’m concerned that might result in the soil staying too wet. What do you think?

I find your comment difficult to envision what you have in mind. The horizontal position of a root graft makes sense if you are envisioning an approach graft with horizontal nebari. Does not makes sense if approach graft on lower upright trunk. Adding a cloth bag seems to indicate you are considering a graft higher up on the trunk. As I believe I mentioned I am not familiar with root grafting on pines so hard to comment.
When grafting scions on pines placing the graft to one side in the vertical cut is considered very important to insure cambium contact, that does not carry over to approach grafting except with Junipers it is considered very important to cut the channel across rather than vertical. Can you provide a link for the video you are referencing? That may help to explain your query.

 

[Veebs]

I find your comment difficult to envision what you have in mind. The horizontal position of a root graft makes sense if you are envisioning an approach graft with horizontal nebari. Does not makes sense if approach graft on lower upright trunk. Adding a cloth bag seems to indicate you are considering a graft higher up on the trunk. As I believe I mentioned I am not familiar with root grafting on pines so hard to comment.
When grafting scions on pines placing the graft to one side in the vertical cut is considered very important to insure cambium contact, that does not carry over to approach grafting except with Junipers it is considered very important to cut the channel across rather than vertical. Can you provide a link for the video you are referencing? That may help to explain your query.

Hi there, here’s a video I watched:

 

[River's Edge]

Hi there, here’s a video I watched:

When I watch the video I see a horizontal cut to hold the graft in place. However he appears to only clean away a small part of the cambium to create a point graft. Not cutting the cambium for very far in the length of the slot. Looks doable, he is using a very vigorous species. Do you know what the results ended up looking like over time? I did not watch to the end of the video.
A bag approach to hold the soil, new roots and allow the upper part of the seedlings to stick out sounds like a reasonable approach.
Good Luck and let us know how it turns out with your pine.

 

[River's Edge]

Hi there, here’s a video I watched:

I would encourage you to watch the video carefully, the quality of root graft material and the quality of workmanship displayed is questionable from my point of view.

 

[Veebs]

I would encourage you to watch the video carefully, the quality of root graft material and the quality of workmanship displayed is questionable from my point of view.

I was skeptical about the technique which is why I asked.

 

[Veebs]

When I watch the video I see a horizontal cut to hold the graft in place. However he appears to only clean away a small part of the cambium to create a point graft. Not cutting the cambium for very far in the length of the slot. Looks doable, he is using a very vigorous species. Do you know what the results ended up looking like over time? I did not watch to the end of the video.
A bag approach to hold the soil, new roots and allow the upper part of the seedlings to stick out sounds like a reasonable approach.
Good Luck and let us know how it turns out with your pine.

I see what you’re saying. I didn’t notice before how little white you see when he has cut into the bark.

Ironically, in the comments he gives written instructions and he’s very clear about needing to see the white to know you got past the cambium. Then he didn’t really do that…

In the comments he says he lost the tree in heat wave the following year. Maybe that’s the reason… maybe not…

Thanks again for all your suggestions. I’m not thrilled with the vigor of the seedlings I got so this may wait a year.

 

[bwaynef]

I think you'd have better results approach grafting a seedling using vertical grooves and letting the seedling's taproot be put to good use to create your future nebari.

I was given a few loblollies and they had horrible roots. I attempted a layer on two of them and on two I found 2 sets of roots. I cut the top ones back HARD (a few millimeter nubs) and left the bottom roots hardly touched. Hopefully, when I come back to repot in a year or two, the upper roots will have started forming and I can get rid of the lower roots. I may have to wean them off, but with trees as young as I'm dealing with, they don't have much else going for them so I might as well wait out a good set of roots.