Is bonsai art? - inspired by BVF

[MichaelS]

"

Smoke, post: 449705, member: 66"]It's called a concensus. Look it up.

Hypocritical that you have not used the ignore button as you suggest that AMCG should. That's the first thing.
Next, consensus as in there is a consensus that JFK was a great President? That does not make it correct. So there's that.

I could use the same quote for each practitioner of bonsai. We have no idea what is in their heart. It is up to the viewer and a concensus of peer review over years to deem when someone creates art. I have no idea why this concept is so hard for some to grasp.

So then the dusty unseen painting in the artists studio is not art?...... Bullshit

Both people have stated that: ''To give body and perfect form to one's thought. This - and only this - is to be an artist''

Are they both artists?
Have they both created art?

A

B

A concensus here. Which one is art? A or B?

Neither. Both are close interpretations of other trees they have already seen. And those trees were also copies of others before them. The trunk of the second tree is basically natural, so that definitely cant be art. The crown, well that's made to a pre-existing formula. Tell me it wasn't. Both images come form OUTSIDE the minds of the creators. ''I have no idea why this concept is so hard to grasp'' Why can't you SEE what is in front of you?[/QUOTE]

 

[MichaelS]

I have become bored with you. You are a troll. easy to fix though.

Wow you don't even know the definition of troll, and you want to define art! No hope me thinks.

 

[my nellie]

I'm sorry Alexandra, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking... ...Nothing to do with a viewer.

Never mind. @Bolero told me the other time that I am "cryptic" .
I have got my answer, from your point of view i.e.
Thank you!

Great thanks also to @Smoke and @amcoffeegirl for keeping the discussion going (as long as it goes with no ignore ) because it is honestly interesting.
I apologize to those who have objections based on the fact that all this has been discussed over and over in the past...
Through the opposition I gather more knowledge, which I have to digest and sort out in a later stage.

 

[Bolero]

IMO MichaelS is more right than he is wrong but he is both....but not at the same time, (how's that for cryptic Alexandra)
Myself I find it a stretch to consider Bonsai as Art however there is an Artistic component to a Masterpiece...
I consider some of the Overpowering Deadwood additions to a beautiful Juniper as a Jackson Pollack equivalent and not even remotely Art...
I attended a David DeGroot Lecture Demonstration last night and although he demonstrated that he is a Master Craftstman, I can in No Way consider the his work as Art.....

 

[jacob letoile]

So then the dusty unseen painting in the artists studio is not art?...... Bullshit

Ding ding ding. It's not art until it's seen. It's not art because someone you deam an artist makes it, it's art when a viewer appreciates it. The more people who deam an object to be art, the stronger the argument for it being art.

I know you can never accept this, but that's OK, I'm not argueing with you. I'm using you as a foil. You put forth an easily rebuted argument, I rebut and leave it to the reader to determine who makes more sense. Your definitions aren't even internally consistent nor reflecting the reality of the world around you. Your definition of art is dependent the state of mind of the person producing it, something you can never know and therefore your assessment of what is and is not art cannot be based on your definition of what art is.

Buy the way, using the same rational you use for dismissing photography as art I can dismiss all works. See that sculpture there, it can't be art because the craftsperson merely adjusted the rock that what was there, there is nothing new. See that painting, the canvas was there, the paint was there the craftsman just adjusted what was there, nothing new. Hear that music it's just sound waves. The instrument was there, the notes were there, the musician is just rearranging what is already there.

 

[Vance Wood]

So according to what I have been reading form most of you people if what a self delusional artist wanna be thinks of his work or effort it does not mean a hill of beans. What is important is what you'z guy'z think and that result can run the entire gauntlet of opinion and sensibilities, where one group thinks if it makes sense it is a craft, if it looks like cow plop it must be art. I still think there are some of you that look to beat others over the head by demonstrating just how much bull shit you have absorbed about the subject, while in the end you cannot or will not post photos of your efforts.

 

[A Random User]

So according to what I have been reading form most of you people if what a self delusional artist wanna be thinks of his work or effort it does not mean a hill of beans. What is important is what you'z guy'z think and that result can run the entire gauntlet of opinion and sensibilities, where one group thinks if it makes sense it is a craft, if it looks like cow plop it must be art. I still think there are some of you that look to beat others over the head by demonstrating just how much bull shit you have absorbed about the subject, while in the end you cannot or will not post photos of your efforts.

Here are 2 of mine.



Thus one I did the video on... I spent $36 dollars on it. It looks nothing like what it started off as... I have done all the work, I have not tried to replicate any tree in nature I have seen, nor have I tried to replicate anyone else's tree.

My vision, and mine alone. Had no help in any way shape or fashion, from anything or anyone...

This came purely out if my imagination...

I think I deserve the right to call my tree a piece of Art. And frankly don't think this decision is up to anyone but me to decide.



Second tree... this one I paid $25 dollars for it. It looks nothing like what I first obtained.
In fact the tree was a cascading piece of material, that I actually attached wire to and straightedge the trunk out as part of an exercise I did early on, of how to teach myself not only how to wire, but to do drastic bends.

Again... no one helped me, I did not design the tree around anything I saw either in nature, or some one else's bonsai.

Just purely out of my imagination...

And I even designed and made the pot. Again, I did not look outside of myself for inspiration or ideas for it. Just purely out of my imagination. ..

I think I deserve the right to call this my piece of Art as well. The pot too.

I don't think that anyone else deserves the right to judge or decide what I do is Art. This is not their's to do.

Now they could perhaps not like my work...
This is fine.
I did not create it for them. I created it for myself. Which is the whole point. And in fact... if I had listen to all the folks here and their opinions. .. and had not done what I myself wanted to do... I am sure the trees would of pretty much looked like crap. So, I am thankful I listen to what it is I wanted to do.

I can go on if you'd like?

I can post up a picture of one of the trees I did, that Smoke himself said was not Bonsai... but Art and that he believed it should be displayed in a museum. Which I took as a great compliment, even though I new he was only trying to insult.

Also... wanted to add one more thing... all of the work done on these trees, I did. Nature did not do any of this for me, other than grow and stay alive.

Sorry, I kept waiting for @sorce to post up his pissing contest... and so far as I suspected... a big fat "nothing". So, figured then I would post them here.
Thanks.

 

[my nellie]

Back from the old glorious days on IBC.... The first two are elms and third is a scots pine.
@MichaelS -and of course anyone who would like to give his/her decision- would you consider the creator to be an "artist" and the crafts to be "art objects"?

All the components of the composition hand-made.

This is what the scots pine was "before"

 

[Vance Wood]

Here are 2 of mine.

View attachment 142887

Thus one I did the video on... I spent $36 dollars on it. It looks nothing like what it started off as... I have done all the work, I have not tried to replicate any tree in nature I have seen, nor have I tried to replicate anyone else's tree.

My vision, and mine alone. Had no help in any way shape or fashion, from anything or anyone...

This came purely out if my imagination...

I think I deserve the right to call my tree a piece of Art. And frankly don't think this decision is up to anyone but me to decide.

View attachment 142888

Second tree... this one I paid $25 dollars for it. It looks nothing like what I first obtained.
In fact the tree was a cascading piece of material, that I actually attached wire to and straightedge the trunk out as part of an exercise I did early on, of how to teach myself not only how to wire, but to do drastic bends.

Again... no one helped me, I did not design the tree around anything I saw either in nature, or some one else's bonsai.

Just purely out of my imagination...

And I even designed and made the pot. Again, I did not look outside of myself for inspiration or ideas for it. Just purely out of my imagination. ..

I think I deserve the right to call this my piece of Art as well. The pot too.

I don't think that anyone else deserves the right to judge or decide what I do is Art. This is not their's to do.

Now they could perhaps not like my work...
This is fine.
I did not create it for them. I created it for myself. Which is the whole point. And in fact... if I had listen to all the folks here and their opinions. .. and had not done what I myself wanted to do... I am sure the trees would of pretty much looked like crap. So, I am thankful I listen to what it is I wanted to do.

I can go on if you'd like?

I can post up a picture of one of the trees I did, that Smoke himself said was not Bonsai... but Art and that he believed it should be displayed in a museum. Which I took as a great compliment, even though I new he was only trying to insult.

Also... wanted to add one more thing... all of the work done on these trees, I did. Nature did not do any of this for me, other than grow and stay alive.

Sorry, I kept waiting for @sorce to post up his pissing contest... and so far as I suspected... a big fat "nothing". So, figured then I would post them here.
Thanks.

You wrote: I think I deserve the right to call my tree a piece of Art. And frankly don't think this decision is up to anyone but me to decide. This is absolutely correct, in the end it is your decision. I think a lot of the time people are under the impression that in order for anything to be art it has to either be incredibly ugly or incredibly lovely. There are a lot of other pronouns that can be used but those are the extremes. If it cannot be defined it cannot be put in a box with a title on it.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

@sawgrass please don't be offended.
I know you are an artist. I see your threads and I am not blind.
Thank you for sharing your trees.
I will be so happy when I have something that nice to be proud of.

 

[MichaelS]

"

sawgrass,

This came purely out if my imagination...

Did it really?? Purely out of your imagination heh?
Who decided that the branches are where they are? Answer...the tree. Did you place the branches where they are? No the tree did.
Why are the branches descending at this particular angle? Answer...because otherbonsai you have seen do this. So you do it too. It's the convention. Not the imagination Real junipers certainly don't grow like that.
If you really believe this image you see before you came purely from your imagination, I think you are kidding yourself. Why? Because you don't have complete control over a tree. When you have been growing things for long enough you will realize this fact. (and of course it is a fact not an alternative fact or a theory) Bonsai which are shaped one particular way ALWAYS look different, and often strikingly different, to when they were first made after time. This is because they grow into a different shape. They don't need your help to age and develop. What happens to the art then? Do you change your original work? Do you have a choice to keep it as your imagination first intended? Does the art have a life of it's own? Does it only become art when it's finished? All you are doing is moving things around here and there. You are restrained by the what the tree allows you to do. What kind of art is that?

I think I deserve the right to call my tree a piece of Art.

And frankly don't think this decision is up to anyone but me to decide.

Then I have the ''right'' to call what I do ''not art''
Therefore, I will naturally see yours also as not being art. I have put forward my reasons for why I see it this way. I have put my case, you see it opposite to me. The end.

 

[MichaelS]

jacob letoile, post: 449820, member: 20458"]
Ding ding ding. It's not art until it's seen. It's not art because someone you deam an artist makes it, it's art when a viewer appreciates it.

I know you can never accept this

Ding ding ding. You don't even see what you are writing. Of course I'm not going to accept it. The artist IS the viewer. The only viewer that matters. How could you miss that?

The more people who deam an object to be art, the stronger the argument for it being art.

This is just so much twaddle that you have regurgitated from some place. Art doesn't somehow change the more people think it's art. It is what it is. It may become more influential the more people see it but not more ''arty'' or whatever you want to call it.
It just takes one viewer. What if 50% of your ''viewers'' think its a masterpiece and the other 50 % think it's cat vomit. Does that render it neutral? What is the artist supposed to think about his own work? Did I succeed or did I fail? This is pure nonsense.
The only important thing can be that the artist is satisfied with what he has produced. Anything else does not matter. Real artists do it because they feel the need to. Not to see what others might or might not gain from it.
You are not thinking. Always look for the truth. It's out there!

 

[MichaelS]

Back from the old glorious days on IBC.... The first two are elms and third is a scots pine.
@MichaelS -and of course anyone who would like to give his/her decision- would you consider the creator to be an "artist" and the crafts to be "art objects"?

All the components of the composition hand-made.

This is what the scots pine was "before"

Perhaps the container the pine is planted in. That's not to say I don't like the composition.
I don't like the elms at all. And I don't consider any of the trees art.
I now don't consider any form of plant manipulation art except maybe some forms of topiary.
Bonsai is glorified grass mowing when I think about it. Gardening.

 

[A Random User]

"
Did it really?? Purely out of your imagination heh?
Who decided that the branches are where they are? Answer...the tree. Did you place the branches where they are? No the tree did.
Why are the branches descending at this particular angle? Answer...because otherbonsai you have seen do this. So you do it too. It's the convention. Not the imagination Real junipers certainly don't grow like that.
If you really believe this image you see before you came purely from your imagination, I think you are kidding yourself. Why? Because you don't have complete control over a tree. When you have been growing things for long enough you will realize this fact. (and of course it is a fact not an alternative fact or a theory) Bonsai which are shaped one particular way ALWAYS look different, and often strikingly different, to when they were first made after time. This is because they grow into a different shape. They don't need your help to age and develop. What happens to the art then? Do you change your original work? Do you have a choice to keep it as your imagination first intended? Does the art have a life of it's own? Does it only become art when it's finished? All you are doing is moving things around here and there. You are restrained by the what the tree allows you to do. What kind of art is that?

View attachment 142914




Then I have the ''right'' to call what I do ''not art''
Therefore, I will naturally see yours also as not being art. I have put forward my reasons for why I see it this way. I have put my case, you see it opposite to me. The end.

See...

Now I totally get Why you told Sorce to keep up the Good Thoughts...

Apparently you two numb-nuts have a logic of only your own... sort of an alternative universe type of thing. Alot like our new Prez...

The only problem is that anyone can easily go back and see what you wrote.


So... seeing I am not so smart and all, and have not been doing Bonsai for 30 years. .. perhaps you could tell me why on page 6 , I believe it was... that I wrote the following...

it is my opinion that what defines someone being an Artist from someone doing a craft... is the willingness in my view, to show the craft in such a way where one is trying to intervene their own personal thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc. of their view of the world in what it is they are creating.


And on Page 9 I believe it was... that you wrote the following. ..


Someone who above all else seeks to bring out an individual and deeply personal thought or idea from the deepest recesses of their minds and are hardly ever satisfied with what they do. Someone who hardly cares if the work they do is recognized by others and the only important thing is that burning desire to turn their dream into some kind of external form whether it be sound, movement or physical form.

This seems odd?

Not that you did not recognize that I held the exact same view... because clearly you didn't actually read what I had posted...

But, because... I don't think this actually was the point... I think you just seem to off blocked out everything I have actually written.

That it was not important to you...

That what was important to you was just trying to somehow prove that I couldn't possibly claim I was something. Unless of course you said it was OK to do something?

Gotta say...
This is probably one of the few times I will agree with my buddy @Smoke ...
You are a Troll.

I also found the whole thread you posted regarding having some "major enlightenment " funny as well of "Splitting a trunk and bending it"... just a day or so after you said you saw my video regarding the same actual process... then ragging on it and saying it was nothing new...

Apparently, it was?
Anything else you plan on ripping off, I have done or said?

 

[MichaelS]

See...

Now I totally get Why you told Sorce to keep up the Good Thoughts...

Apparently you two numb-nuts have a logic of only your own... sort of an alternative universe type of thing. Alot like our new Prez...

The only problem is that anyone can easily go back and see what you wrote.


So... seeing I am not so smart and all, and have not been doing Bonsai for 30 years. .. perhaps you could tell me why on page 6 , I believe it was... that I wrote the following...

it is my opinion that what defines someone being an Artist from someone doing a craft... is the willingness in my view, to show the craft in such a way where one is trying to intervene their own personal thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc. of their view of the world in what it is they are creating.


And on Page 9 I believe it was... that you wrote the following. ..


Someone who above all else seeks to bring out an individual and deeply personal thought or idea from the deepest recesses of their minds and are hardly ever satisfied with what they do. Someone who hardly cares if the work they do is recognized by others and the only important thing is that burning desire to turn their dream into some kind of external form whether it be sound, movement or physical form.

This seems odd?

Not that you did not recognize that I held the exact same view... because clearly you didn't actually read what I had posted...

But, because... I don't think this actually was the point... I think you just seem to off blocked out everything I have actually written.

That it was not important to you...

That what was important to you was just trying to somehow prove that I couldn't possibly claim I was something. Unless of course you said it was OK to do something?

Gotta say...
This is probably one of the few times I will agree with my buddy @Smoke ...
You are a Troll.

I also found the whole thread you posted regarding having some "major enlightenment " funny as well of "Splitting a trunk and bending it"... just a day or so after you said you saw my video regarding the same actual process... then ragging on it and saying it was nothing new...

Apparently, it was?
Anything else you plan on ripping off, I have done or said?

Poor old hacksaw. The true disgusting and insulting Troll. (look it up) I've been stripping bark and splitting trunks since before you knew what a bonsai was. You know that because you acknowledged that very fact in one of your drivelling musings. Yet you believe you have the knowledge that I ripped you off? The amount of nonsense that oozes from your shrivelled brain is frightening. I've held back with you and bit my tongue. But I can contain myself no longer. You are the most pathetic fraud I have ever had the displeasure to meet. You who needs to resort to inaccurate name calling and sarcasm because you don't have the intellect to even construct a sentence that makes sense. You really are a simple minded thing. You really are seriously pathetic and sad. Forget posting on a forum until you get a few lessons in grammar and comprehension because at the moment what you write is in fact seriously confused. The fact that you have actually survived life this long is probably pure coincidence. I hate the fact that I have been driven by you to react this way (I never have before, and that in itself speaks volumes) but in your case I will make an exception just to save someone else from having to. For your own sake, I hope you don't find it too difficult to comprehend what you have just read.

 

[A Random User]

Poor old hacksaw. The true disgusting and insulting Troll. (look it up) I've been stripping bark and splitting trunks since before you knew what a bonsai was. You know that because you acknowledged that very fact in one of your drivelling musings. Yet you believe you have the knowledge that I ripped you off? The amount of nonsense that oozes from your shrivelled brain is frightening. I've held back with you and bit my tongue. But I can contain myself no longer. You are the most pathetic fraud I have ever had the displeasure to meet. You who needs to resort to inaccurate name calling and sarcasm because you don't have the intellect to even construct a sentence that makes sense. You really are a simple minded thing. You really are seriously pathetic and sad. Forget posting on a forum until you get a few lessons in grammar and comprehension because at the moment what you write is in fact seriously confused. The fact that you have actually survived life this long is probably pure coincidence. I hate the fact that I have been driven by you to react this way (I never have before, and that in itself speaks volumes) but in your case I will make an exception just to save someone else from having to. For your own sake, I hope you don't find it too difficult to comprehend what you have just read.

I have not driven you anywhere my friend.

You have set down this path yourself.

You chose from the beginning to call people Narcissist. Tell them they were only insecure and seeking attention.

I did not seek you out. In fact, I don't recall with my initial post actually mentioning your name at all... Do you?

I did not make you draw yellow lines on one of my photos of my trees to somehow prove your point...

You have been free to go from the moment you came here.

I do have one more question for you though... which I am sure it will somehow be my fault that you answered...

And that is...
You posted in your response trying to show how my tree could not be considered Art...

The Following. ..

Who decided where the branches went? The tree did. Did you decide where the branches went? No the tree did.

Which is odd as well... I mean... I know I have not been doing Bonsai for 30 years and stuff...

But, I would of thought that seeing Bonsai is a whole Art based around manipulation of a piece of material. ... that you in all your time doing it... would of actually of figured out that there are any number of ways one can style a tree, that in fact you can change the whole tree in its entirety. So, that the tree actually determines very little over what, has to be done to it.

The tree in question... as I wrote and you clearly did not read... did not have a straight trunk. I straightened it. The tree did not determine I should do this... I did.

I did not have to straighten it... and if I hadn't, would I still have to put the branches where you say the tree determined they be?

No, of course not!
The branch placement was a direct result of what I did with the tree, and where I decided to place the branches.

And tomorrow, if I wanted too... I could totally style the tree in a totally new direction. The tree does not say that I can't.
And in fact if you were to go back and look over all the threads regarding trees here... you would see that time after time again, I have completely changed the entire direction of where my trees have come from... and often from one style to the next.

So... my friend...

Your skirt is showing on so many levels here.
I would suggest you give it a rest.
Or respond and tell me how I am wrong on your own dime.

Either way... I am out of here and outta this site. It's been real... I think?

 

[my nellie]

I have an objection to raise on the post above

Perhaps... ... ... ...Gardening.

But I refrain myself in view of the discussion evolving into a nasty insult throwing....
Reading?
Trying to distinguish through the useless and abusive words what is constructive and useful?
Enough, not any more!

 

[M. Frary]

Use the force. Come over to the dark side and push the ignore button and all this crap magically disappears. Life is too short to argue with buffoons. besides.....nobody wins anyway, and even if you do I'm sure it tastes bitter.

I've added 5 more to the ignore list just today.
It sure is weird watching all of these one sided arguments.

 

[Vance Wood]

Wow you don't even know the definition of troll, and you want to define art! No hope me thinks.

MichaelS, you know there are a couple of things that get in the way of what you are saying: First is Smoke is not someone who you want to have as an adversary and second and more profoundly, you claim to have 30 years experience in bonsai and you refuse to post pictures of any of your trees claiming that in 30 years you have grown bonsai from seed and don't have much to show. I have some I have grown from seed that I am not afraid to show, and if you show me yours I'll show you mine. On this point I believe Al could be correct, you very well may be a troll and have no bonsai at all.

 

[M. Frary]

MichaelS, you know there are a couple of things that get in the way of what you are saying: First is Smoke is not someone who you want to have as an adversary and second and more profoundly, you claim to have 30 years experience in bonsai and you refuse to post pictures of any of your trees claiming that in 30 years you have grown bonsai from seed and don't have much to show. I have some I have grown from seed that I am not afraid to show, and if you show me yours I'll show you mine. On this point I believe Al could be correct, you very well may be a troll and have no bonsai at all.

He's got trees Vance.
He just doesn't have any idea what he's doing.