Indoor Chinese elm under lights.

[Ashbonsai]

Hi all, I have only just registered after finding some useful information on here recently. This is my first post and likely to be a little controversial as this subject always is...
I am from the uk.
I have a few Chinese elms ranging from 10 quid starters to a 50 year old and all are outside bar one. I have a cheap one bought for £12 purposefully with the aim to grow it entirely indoors as part of research and to put to bed the old ‘get it outside’ crew. I have had very little insightful knowledge from anywhere else (mainly Facebook pages) and people tend to become very obnoxious and demeaning towards people wishing to grow elms inside.
I want to grow one inside to be part of the proof it CAN be done. I know it can as I’ve had very reliable sources telling me their customers have been growing individuals inside exclusively for over 20 years.
I would like to see if there is anyone here that has had success with indoor elms and knows that they don’t actually just grow themselves to death. Please let me know and feel free to offer pictures and/or links regarding the subject.
I have attached a picture of my elm that was repotted a week ago and is growing under a very good light inside.

 

[_#1_]

I know it can as I’ve had very reliable sources telling me their customers have been growing individuals inside exclusively for over 20 years.

Did your reliable source tell you his customer's secrets to maintaining them?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

No need to do "proof of concept", its been done, and done well. If you are experienced with indoor under lights light gardening, and invest in the proper intensity lights, growing Chinese elm, Ulmus parvifolia under lights is relatively simple. Where all the dogmatic "you got to grow it outside" advice comes from, is when a "newbie" with zero experience raising house plants indoors and little experience raising plants outdoors, often without having ever raised a "home grown tomato", when someone with no experience wants to grow an elm indoors, the project is usually doomed. Often doomed before the post with the query has been typed.

There is 1992 article by Jack Wilke, about his experience growing under lights. Jack, at least as recently as 2018 still has some of the trees mentioned in the article, and they are still growing under lights. The technology of under lights gardening has changed a great deal since his original version of the article in 1992. I found that Facebook is not a reliable source of information. The tendency on Facebook is for "groupthink".

If you are an experienced under lights gardener, growing under lights is "easy".

Some species to no submit to under lights culture as easily as others. I have always been disappointed with the performance of my Japanese black pines under lights. But Chinese elms do well. Eugenia, Malpighia, gardenia, citrus, Hedra, florist type azalea, and many others do well in under light gardens. Key is the subjects should be sub-tropical or tropical, and generally able to survive in part shade when outdoors.

 

[Ashbonsai]

Did your reliable source tell you his customer's secrets to maintaining them?

No, unfortunately he was very of the mindset of ‘customer confidentiality’ and tbh I didn’t actually ask too much as wasn’t there too long.

 

[Ashbonsai]

No need to do "proof of concept", its been done, and done well. If you are experienced with indoor under lights light gardening, and invest in the proper intensity lights, growing Chinese elm, Ulmus parvifolia under lights is relatively simple. Where all the dogmatic "you got to grow it outside" advice comes from, is when a "newbie" with zero experience raising house plants indoors and little experience raising plants outdoors, often without having ever raised a "home grown tomato", when someone with no experience wants to grow an elm indoors, the project is usually doomed. Often doomed before the post with the query has been typed.

There is 1992 article by Jack Wilke, about his experience growing under lights. Jack, at least as recently as 2018 still has some of the trees mentioned in the article, and they are still growing under lights. The technology of under lights gardening has changed a great deal since his original version of the article in 1992. I found that Facebook is not a reliable source of information. The tendency on Facebook is for "groupthink".

If you are an experienced under lights gardener, growing under lights is "easy".

Some species to no submit to under lights culture as easily as others. I have always been disappointed with the performance of my Japanese black pines under lights. But Chinese elms do well. Eugenia, Malpighia, gardenia, citrus, Hedra, florist type azalea, and many others do well in under light gardens. Key is the subjects should be sub-tropical or tropical, and generally able to survive in part shade when outdoors.

Yes, I’ve see that article and also very interested in the junipers he’s had growing for over 20 years, fascinating!
Yes I’m quite well rehearsed in growing under lights so have no real worries but the backlash I get from these pages is just ridiculous. People keep adamantly telling me CE grow themselves to death which doesn’t sound right at all to me.
On a side note, I have read about azaleas doing well from jack Wilkes post, I was very interested in if they actually still flower. I have a few hino crimson which he notes to be good for growing under lights but they all flower in spring, how does that plant know to flower if it doesn’t have the dormant winter, if at all!

 

[Shibui]

Great to see a trial happening.
Most of the dead and dying Chinese elms we see see not growing under great conditions, hence the recommendation to get them into better (outside).
It will be good to see that this can be done so others without access to outside spaces can follow.

 

[sorce]

Our friend @Anthony talks about how Chinese Elms can range naturally from zone like 4 to 12 or something. I don't know how much that matters for the stock we can get, but if you had to buy them direct from China, you would likely have more success with some.

I think if you get one to live, you can reproduce it forever. Some new things may not live if they are from different places.

Fuuuuuuuuck Facebook!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[MrWunderful]

It can be done, but is just done better outside!

All the lights and humidity etc seems like so much extra work to me. I am jealous of some of those shohin ficus I see around here though

 

[_#1_]

I'm relatively new to growing anything, and been here for about 4 years. In the 4 years I've been here, I don't recall any indoor elms progressions.

Is it that it's possible but not practical? What about dormancy?

 

[Ashbonsai]

Great to see a trial happening.
Most of the dead and dying Chinese elms we see see not growing under great conditions, hence the recommendation to get them into better (outside).
It will be good to see that this can be done so others without access to outside spaces can follow.

Yep, I also have seen many elms dying inside because of poor conditions. I think that is why, like you say, people keep shunning my trial. Trouble is most of the people haven’t tried themselves and are just speaking from ‘experience’ that they have heard or see of others. I’m not accepting that and so my trial is so I know and have genuine experiences in trying, not just hearsay

 

[Ashbonsai]

Our friend @Anthony talks about how Chinese Elms can range naturally from zone like 4 to 12 or something. I don't know how much that matters for the stock we can get, but if you had to buy them direct from China, you would likely have more success with some.

I think if you get one to live, you can reproduce it forever. Some new things may not live if they are from different places.

Fuuuuuuuuck Facebook!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

Yeah I have seen a couple of comments from Anthony and his experience seems very interesting to me and that is what I’m after, genuine experiences from people who know

I agree, Facebook is really terrible for know it all elitist idiots that don’t seem to want to accept anything other than what they’ve been told. Fed up of it!

Crazy sounds good to me!

 

[Ashbonsai]

It can be done, but is just done better outside!

All the lights and humidity etc seems like so much extra work to me. I am jealous of some of those shohin ficus I see around here though

Yeah, I do have a few outside including one that is pretty old and big.

I have a lot of interest and I’m already quite deep into lighting and humidity for my ficus trees so this isn’t really any extra work for me, just a little side project. I will definitely be checking out the ficus in here!

 

[Ashbonsai]

I'm relatively new to growing anything, and been here for about 4 years. In the 4 years I've been here, I don't recall any indoor elms progressions.

Is it that it's possible but not practical? What about dormancy?

Yeah it’s the same wherever you look I think.
Maybe it is because it’s too much work compared to just sticking it outside. Or maybe it is because the success rate is very low.
Dormancy is my biggest concern but that is something I’m trying to find out more on.

 

[Shibui]

Dormancy is my biggest concern but that is something I’m trying to find out more on.

I'm not sure dormancy is an issue for Chinese elm. I know they are grown in tropical parts of Australia where they do not drop leaves. Growers in Brisbane, Australia report they discovered Chinese elm can be root pruned and repotted any time of year because there is no dormant period in their sub tropical climate. I suspect that indoors would be similar.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Under Lights growing of temperate species. Not all species absolutely "need" a dormancy. Some like Chinese elm are opportunistic, they will grow continuously without dormancy, if conditions allow. However, they have all the mechanisms for surviving a cold, zone 6 ot maybe even zone 5 winter, if they are acclimated by the steadily declining night temperatures in autumn.

Look at where certain species are grown in the landscape. This will give you clues as to whether they absolutely require a cold winter rest, or whether they can opportunistically grow all year round. Ficus grow all year round if temperatures, light and humidity are high enough. Apples, can not be grown in southern Florida or parts of southern California. They require a cold rest, and simply will not flower reliably much south of Tampa Florida. In the California orchards, much is made of developing "low chill" cultivars of apples, peaches, and other fruit trees, to develop cultivars that need relatively few hours of winter chill to complete dormancy requirements.

Some trees, for example bald cypress, will go through a "dormancy" every winter, even if the temperatures do not drop anywhere near freezing. They may or may not keep their foliage all winter, They take a break from growing, and really just sit dormant.

Many azalea can be grown and bloomed in Hawaii including a number of Satsuki azalea. They keep "on schedule" with just a minor temperature drop in winter. Two or 3 months of temperatures in the low 60's F (around 15 C or 16 C), is sufficient to meet the Satsuki azalea's demand for "winter". At moderate elevation in Hawaii, it is easy to get temperatures in the upper 50's or low 60's F.

Lastly - there are many different cues that trees use to know what time it is. Trees that dominate the canopy have biological clocks. They gas off into the air chemicals that function as hormones (complex sesquiterpenes) that neighboring trees & shrubs can react to. For example, if you buy spring blooming bulbs from South Africa, usually in 18 to 36 months the bulbs will have switched their blooming from spring in SA which is October, to spring in USA which is April. Even if you grow these bulbs under lights. The air that seeps into your home from outside includes the sesquiterpenes that tell the plants in your lights set ups what time of year it is. No house is hermetically sealed, plants "talk to each other" through these volatile sesquiterpenes. Your ficus and elm and azalea "know" what time of year it is because they "read" the chemical signals that the landscape maples, spruce, fir & pines put into the air.

 

[Ashbonsai]

Under Lights growing of temperate species. Not all species absolutely "need" a dormancy. Some like Chinese elm are opportunistic, they will grow continuously without dormancy, if conditions allow. However, they have all the mechanisms for surviving a cold, zone 6 ot maybe even zone 5 winter, if they are acclimated by the steadily declining night temperatures in autumn.

Look at where certain species are grown in the landscape. This will give you clues as to whether they absolutely require a cold winter rest, or whether they can opportunistically grow all year round. Ficus grow all year round if temperatures, light and humidity are high enough. Apples, can not be grown in southern Florida or parts of southern California. They require a cold rest, and simply will not flower reliably much south of Tampa Florida. In the California orchards, much is made of developing "low chill" cultivars of apples, peaches, and other fruit trees, to develop cultivars that need relatively few hours of winter chill to complete dormancy requirements.

Some trees, for example bald cypress, will go through a "dormancy" every winter, even if the temperatures do not drop anywhere near freezing. They may or may not keep their foliage all winter, They take a break from growing, and really just sit dormant.

Many azalea can be grown and bloomed in Hawaii including a number of Satsuki azalea. They keep "on schedule" with just a minor temperature drop in winter. Two or 3 months of temperatures in the low 60's F (around 15 C or 16 C), is sufficient to meet the Satsuki azalea's demand for "winter". At moderate elevation in Hawaii, it is easy to get temperatures in the upper 50's or low 60's F.

Lastly - there are many different cues that trees use to know what time it is. Trees that dominate the canopy have biological clocks. They gas off into the air chemicals that function as hormones (complex sesquiterpenes) that neighboring trees & shrubs can react to. For example, if you buy spring blooming bulbs from South Africa, usually in 18 to 36 months the bulbs will have switched their blooming from spring in SA which is October, to spring in USA which is April. Even if you grow these bulbs under lights. The air that seeps into your home from outside includes the sesquiterpenes that tell the plants in your lights set ups what time of year it is. No house is hermetically sealed, plants "talk to each other" through these volatile sesquiterpenes. Your ficus and elm and azalea "know" what time of year it is because they "read" the chemical signals that the landscape maples, spruce, fir & pines put into the air.

Now that is very interesting.... I have a lot more reading to do by the sounds of it!
I now feel an experiment with azaleas is on the cards.
So I’m assuming for the most part a stable temperature and light time isn’t necessarily going to diminish the chances of certain plants from still reacting to external signals that allow them to fulfil stages of their seasonal cycle such as spring flowering?

 

[BrianBay9]

Jerry Meislik grows everything indoors. Mostly ficus, but he has good advice on his site. https://www.bonsaihunk.us/

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Exactly, indoor trees and shrubs are not isolated from the chemical signals coming from the outdoor trees and shrubs.

However, it is very species specific as to which environmental cues are most significant for a particular species. For example, marijuana, poinsettia and chrysanthemums react very strongly to day length. Changing day length for these species will trigger either vegetative growth or blooming. For all 3, longer than 12 hours of bright light will trigger vegetative growth, less than 12 hours of day length will trigger flowering. The flowering response will happen regardless of the volatile sesquiterpenes in the air coming in from outside. Hence the floral market can have blooming chrysanthemums year round.

Conversely, for opium poppies, short day length will trigger vegetative growth. Seed germinates during the moist Mediterranean winter, the seedling grows vegetatively only during winter. Then the formation of flower buds begins when day length exceeds 12 hours, and then regardless of how larger or small the vegetative plant is, it will go on to flower, form a seed pod, mature, go senile and die.

Obviously, plant species of some economic importance have been studied, most species used for bonsai have not been studied as they are not normally of sufficient economic importance for the University research grant system.

Each species either has its own internal clock, or relies on receiving sesquiterpene chemical signals from other species in the landscape. Trees that tend to form significant portions of the canopy tend to have their independent biological clock. Species that are not dominant in the landscape will tend to forego the metabolic cost of having an internal biological clock, and depend instead on receiving signals from the local dominant canopy trees.

Whether a specific environmental cue will over-ride conditions in our light gardens, or whether a species will grow opportunistically, as in Ficus, is a species by species response. One can not generalize and say all species will respond a certain way.

And for many, we simply do not know the answer.

Now that is very interesting.... I have a lot more reading to do by the sounds of it!
I now feel an experiment with azaleas is on the cards.
So I’m assuming for the most part a stable temperature and light time isn’t necessarily going to diminish the chances of certain plants from still reacting to external signals that allow them to fulfil stages of their seasonal cycle such as spring flowering

 

[Ashbonsai]

Yep I’ve been reading through a lot of the site and some very interesting stuff indeed! Given me a lot of ideas for the future.
One point to note for me is the need for a cooler atmosphere for certain temperate or semi tropicals such as the elm.... my grow area is constantly warm so I need to look into ways to introduce a slower growth period by the looks of it.

Jerry Meislik grows everything indoors. Mostly ficus, but he has good advice on his site. https://www.bonsaihunk.us/

 

[Ashbonsai]

Exactly, indoor trees and shrubs are not isolated from the chemical signals coming from the outdoor trees and shrubs.

However, it is very species specific as to which environmental cues are most significant for a particular species. For example, marijuana, poinsettia and chrysanthemums react very strongly to day length. Changing day length for these species will trigger either vegetative growth or blooming. For all 3, longer than 12 hours of bright light will trigger vegetative growth, less than 12 hours of day length will trigger flowering. The flowering response will happen regardless of the volatile sesquiterpenes in the air coming in from outside. Hence the floral market can have blooming chrysanthemums year round.

Conversely, for opium poppies, short day length will trigger vegetative growth. Seed germinates during the moist Mediterranean winter, the seedling grows vegetatively only during winter. Then the formation of flower buds begins when day length exceeds 12 hours, and then regardless of how larger or small the vegetative plant is, it will go on to flower, form a seed pod, mature, go senile and die.

Obviously, plant species of some economic importance have been studied, most species used for bonsai have not been studied as they are not normally of sufficient economic importance for the University research grant system.

Each species either has its own internal clock, or relies on receiving sesquiterpene chemical signals from other species in the landscape. Trees that tend to form significant portions of the canopy tend to have their independent biological clock. Species that are not dominant in the landscape will tend to forego the metabolic cost of having an internal biological clock, and depend instead on receiving signals from the local dominant canopy trees.

Whether a specific environmental cue will over-ride conditions in our light gardens, or whether a species will grow opportunistically, as in Ficus, is a species by species response. One can not generalize and say all species will respond a certain way.

And for many, we simply do not know the answer.

Some very interesting points and I have considered a few but you have given me a lot more to look into. I feel like I’m on a very steep learning curve now which excites me. Thank you for your very informative and thorough responses Leo. A damn site more information and knowledge has been received here already with one post than I’ve had from months of Facebook activity!!