In ground What else should I do prior to root pruning

[Paradox]

I agree that it should have been planted deeper, but it could also have been a timing thing as well. I've had whole branches on an A. palmatum die after hard pruning after bud break but before the spring flush hardened off. I wouldn't have any qualms chopping a healthy palmatum back hard like that, even with some meaningful root reduction, but the timing has to be right.

So you do hard pruning on yours after the leaves harden?

I haven't done much hard cutback on maple yet. I've got one that needs it this year though.

 

[Dav4]

So you do hard pruning on yours after the leaves harden?

I haven't done much hard cutback on maple yet. I've got one that needs it this year though.

Either while dormant or late spring through mid summer. As I mentioned earlier, I've killed large branches pruning after bud break but before the leaves were fully hardened... I suspect it was an energy deficit issue so the tree abandoned the branch.

 

[Japonicus]

only debark the area in contact with the exposed cambium….!

Check out this really good Japanese video. Shows both a standard root graft and a two dual thread/approach root graft. The latter is new to me!
btw Jonas at Bonsai tonight has pins for grafts.

cheers
DSD sends

I assumed only contact points were prepped.
Love the video. He does have a gift in presentation. No hormone no cut paste.

Working on maples is like saving for a 401k with investors adding improvements over time.

Good analogy I like that!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Seen cut paste used many times. Only thing I’d mention about cut paste is that the seeding and cutting must fit together snugly. If not be careful in its application.

If one adds cut paste and it gets inside the junction area this may impede fusing in this area.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

… and Michael Hagedorn posted this today.

Root grafting Stewardia

Best
DSD sends

 

[leatherback]

really good

indeed, quality work there

 

[clem]

As I mentioned earlier, I've killed large branches pruning after bud break but before the leaves were fully hardened... I suspect it was an energy deficit issue so the tree abandoned the branch.

Yes, your tree had no reserves anymore to produce new buds/shoots... Ryan explained it perfectly on this plan ->

 

[leatherback]

Ryan explained it perfectly on this plan

I cannot find the post this referred to; This graph seems to have a lot of mistakes in it, and I would take it with a massive grain of salt..

 

[Japonicus]

Seen cut paste used many times.

I didn't see him use it in the video you linked I mean.

On a side note FWIW, I talked to Jack at Bonsaijack.com yesterday
and he will be restocked on pumice in 3 weeks.
Didn't ask if that includes sifting, washing, drying and pkg time or not.

 

[CptnGlyn]

When the tree looked like this on March 24th 2020...

View attachment 530664

This is what was done ...

View attachment 530665

View attachment 530666


Maybe it's just the picture making it look high in the box. I recall using 12 gallons of soil in the box.
Here are the roots that sat as low as possible in the grow box...
View attachment 530671

View attachment 530672
There was a base layer of bonsai soil 1st of course, but the box was full


There was the initial lift from ground and root work with conservative branch pruning.
I was advised the following year to reduce the canes. Therein lies the reasoning for failure in this case.
I did it, it's my fault. I went against my gut feeling.

Moving on...we have some good rains coming and a heat up this weekend. Should I lift and root prune after the ground
dries somewhat, or while the digging is easier? Seems to me that it would be easier to deal with replanting while the
ground is a bit more crumbly than muddy cakes. Thoughts?
Thanks for the ideas guys. I am not as comfortable with deciduous trees.

Japonicus, have you grown many trees in boxes of this construction? I build my boxes with as much drainage as possible- usually I use wood slats along the underside, and then staple mesh over them.
Your box’s drainage seems to be limited to four relatively small holes in the corners. I think this might cause an issue, although probably secondary to the energy deficit mentioned above.

Obviously if you have grown in boxes like this before and they drain fine then I’m happy to be incorrect!

 

[Japonicus]

Japonicus, have you grown many trees in boxes of this construction? I build my boxes with as much drainage as possible- usually I use wood slats along the underside, and then staple mesh over them.
Your box’s drainage seems to be limited to four relatively small holes in the corners. I think this might cause an issue, although probably secondary to the energy deficit mentioned above.

Obviously if you have grown in boxes like this before and they drain fine then I’m happy to be incorrect!

Many no. I used 1-1/8" hole saw X 5. One centrally located under the tree not visible in that other photo with the tree in it.
All new aggregate bonsai soil and it drained perfectly fine. The oak cross slats underneath give fantastic reinforcement to the
3 ply plywood used for the bottom. If the bottom were rotten when I lift the box, it still should hold for the most part
without collapsing on my feet.



I have no problems with adding more drainage holes.
By the time I'm ready to put this Katsura in a grow box I will add more holes to a new box.
This box may house an A.s. Autumn Moon next that has been growing in ground for 16 years
from Lucile Whitman.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thought long and hard and experimented quite a bit over the years with drainage in both pots and boxes. Do prefer a few more holes myself.

“Drainage” is a somewhat nebulous topic in that it depends a lot of variables… a few are… particle size, height of perched water layer, hole amount, size and placement of hole - or type material/hole size for screening, materiel the box is made of, placement of the box on bench or on the ground ….

…and most of all, the type of tree and goals the hobbyist has for each tree.

Seen a number of designs and created a few. Here are a couple made over three years ago for the museum bonsai. They are somewhat similar in design to @Japanicus, yet a chunk larger.

One was for a very large heritage maple that needed to get strong and also needed nebari work. So also took cuttings for it that year which are ready to be used next year.

The other was for a large heritage crabapple clump bonsai. Its goal was merely to get the tree stronger after many years in the pot.

Each boxed bonsai was benched throughout the period. The maple is still in its box. The crabapple is very strong. It’s back in the pot and the box was repurposed for another bonsai

This design worked fine for this purpose. Note extended sides to facilitate two person lift.




Since then experimented with more open drainage solutions.

So far haven’t seen much difference except open bottoms offer a chance to trim downward roots. While closed bottoms force most of the roots outward.

Do feel more open bottoms are more suited for on ground grow outs and closed bottom boxes can go either way.

Otherwise not sure I’d favor one design over the other.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[dbonsaiw]

two person lift

Smart. I only moved a few boxes so far and my back hurts.

Do feel more open bottoms are more suited for on ground grow

I personally like a lot of holes. I find watering very relaxing and am more than a tad OCD with it, so underwatering is rarely if ever an issue. Having almost all free water drain out is very helpful for my practices.

 

[Japonicus]

Note extended sides to facilitate two person lift.

Pretty nifty I like that
That was my 2nd box. More holes next time.
Prepping my moms house for sale I had to repair her deck and have a few
2x6s and decking boards left over...

 

[Japonicus]

This is a really good time to get some JM seedling (kaede bonsai-en?) or bigger and either approach graft or thread graft these to fill in the gaps between those big chunky roots and begin to fill these areas properly.

Ok got these from kaede bonsai en today. Thought I'd ordered grafting nails but guess I didn't.
Is there a similar option I might find locally. Long thumg tacks, paneling nails with modified plastic washers...?

Also, a couple of these are leafed out. Should I avoid uppotting them already or using them for root grafts?

 

[Japonicus]

The little mountain maples are cute. I was going to do 4 root grafts and train 2. Hard freeze coming, been kind of soggy around here lately so I postponed the grafts. I put wire on 1 in leaf and put a couple of bends in it. Used a bigger guage wire and it worked so much better I wired 2 more. Now I only have 3 left for grafting...

When are the grafting windows open and closed?
(Considering this is my 1st graft attempt) Best window for dummies 101??

The Katsura is primed and ready it looks. Just got my grafting nails in yesterday and freezing temps overnight all week coming.

 

[Japonicus]

Perhaps @Dav4 could answer this question last post?
When does the time widow close for root grafting the subjects above?
Would it be advisable to lift the tree to grow box and root graft then or maybe next year but put in grow box now?
Leaves are starting to open.

 

[Dav4]

Perhaps @Dav4 could answer this question last post?
When does the time widow close for root grafting the subjects above?
Would it be advisable to lift the tree to grow box and root graft then or maybe next year but put in grow box now?
Leaves are starting to open.

Root grafts are performed during the re-potting window. I prefer to root graft when the seedling root donor is fully dormant only because I can successfully thread graft the seedling if needed... in my experience, thread grafting roots is much more successful than approach grafting. As far as doing the grafts at collection or later, that really depends on whether you've got the appropriate grafting material and can identify areas to be grafted at collection. I honestly prefer to collect the tree and cut back the existing roots definitively, place the tree in a wooden box to recover, then see what you have the following year. If I'm anticipating possible root grafts the following/next season, I'll stratify and start my own seedling stock now (I've got last years seedlings outside and frozen right now, and I've got trident and Japanese maple seeds stratifying in the fridge right now, due to get planted out next month.

 

[Japonicus]

Root grafts are performed during the re-potting window. I prefer to root graft when the seedling root donor is fully dormant only because I can successfully thread graft the seedling if needed... in my experience, thread grafting roots is much more successful than approach grafting. As far as doing the grafts at collection or later, that really depends on whether you've got the appropriate grafting material and can identify areas to be grafted at collection. I honestly prefer to collect the tree and cut back the existing roots definitively, place the tree in a wooden box to recover, then see what you have the following year. If I'm anticipating possible root grafts the following/next season, I'll stratify and start my own seedling stock now (I've got last years seedlings outside and frozen right now, and I've got trident and Japanese maple seeds stratifying in the fridge right now, due to get planted out next month.

If the leaves are beginning to unfurl, is the window closed to put in a grow box?

 

[Dav4]

If the leaves are beginning to unfurl, is the window closed to put in a grow box?

No