Imperial Bonsai Fan or not?

[fredman]

For me its bonsai when the roots are under our control. No matter how big. Moving them is never the issue for me. They have a special presence, and when placed at the right place, they command a huge amount of respect. Repotting is an issue, but then again it depends how organized one is. All in all, this is something for the special and brave enthusiast I would say...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Imperial Bonsai - well done is magnificent. But often one's I've seen in person have some pretty bad flaws. The owners give up on trying to correct flaws, because in trees that large it would take more than 2 human lifespans to grow out the corrections. I'd say being big alone is not enough, they have to have all the detail a more modest bonsai has to do it for me. I'm best counted as indifferent to Imperial bonsai. Well done, I like it, poorly done, I move on.

I'm old enough to have physicians telling me not to lift more than a certain amount. Trees I had to get help to move I had to sell or gift away, or the one I kept eventually died from not getting moved into the right place in a timely manner.

90% of my plants are smaller than 36 inches and all remaining are light enough I can keep my physicians happy. Shohin rules. Actually my favorites are in the one to two foot range. Light enough I don't grunt, big enough to be noticed at a distance.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I want to know how he got them home from the collection site, all the details.

I like bonsai like that but when that big I'd rather make niwaki. Look great as bonsai if I had a castle though.

I've had the privilege of talking to Randy about how he got it out and originally got his phone # from Ryan(I believe) and only know part of the story. I don't think I should give his phone # out myself. Since Randy's in the business of selling trees I'm sure he'd be glad to talk to you. The big one I got to see at Ryans place but the other was already sold and gone. What I do know is that unbelievably Randy got that big tree at pretty high altitude and he rigged a sling that him and ONLY one other person used to pack it out. Ryan told me they believed it was about 1000 years old and the trunk was near 2 feet in diameter.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Collectors like RN are making a lot of $ and building up a God-like rep ripping off trees and can justify nabbing these multi-man monsters. They are mind-bendingly cool and I would love to live in the PNW were one can enjoy them and just set them on the ground come winter--but instead I suffer in the land of misery and mediocrity wallowing in a mundane diminishing existence surrounded by dull prairies covered in broken scrub and pervaded by agonizing frozen winds.

You're not all that far from the boys at Back Country Bonsai and they collect some pretty awesome trees too. Check out all the pics on their website of their collecting adventures and it should make you do a lot of drooling. Real nice folks too. Got to meet them at the Artisans Cup and rescued a somewhat smaller Ponderosa from them so it wouldn't have to suffer the trip back home. Figuring out how to get it home in my sports car was a minor adventure in itself. As one who passionately dislikes ice, snow and cold weatherI feel your pain.

 

[Potawatomi13]

For me its bonsai when the roots are under our control. No matter how big. Moving them is never the issue for me. They have a special presence, and when placed at the right place, they command a huge amount of respect. Repotting is an issue, but then again it depends how organized one is. All in all, this is something for the special and brave enthusiast I would say...

The size thing is an interesting adventure in confusion. I did some searching on line and found confusing info that really didn't agree much except for the really small trees. Finally I called Ryan and asked him what he'd learned about it in Japan. It's kind of flexible depending on what country you're in and what master you're talking to apparently. There are some that might be 6-7 feet tall and this really grieves some folks I'm sure but I'm NOT the master. The ones I posted could be trained downward to maybe 4-4 1/2 feet above the pot I imagine without looking like they'd been scalped too badly.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Where I live I really do not have room for any more trees! REALLY don't have ANY more room. However.............................................. in Feb. maybe early March will be going up to Randys place again and maybe Ryans and I CAN'T WAIT! Partly to take some club members shopping(and for their EXCITEMENT as they've never been there)and partly because I just gotta GO! Again! Who would ever guess that plants could be this exciting? It really is crazy!

 

[justBonsai]

They look awesome and probably would really stand out in any backyard or collection but you'd need the money, time, and especially the space. My apartment is too small for any bonsai so I keep most of my trees with my parents while I'm in college. Maybe when I have my own property some day I'd like to have a larger sized tree.

 

[just.wing.it]

They are amazing trees. Personally though, it's too big of I can't pick it up myself.

 

[klosi]

Imperial bonsai is still bonsai for me. Still a tree in a pot. It's definitly important how it's styled, as any bonsai is. They are named as for how many men (or how many hands) it takes to carry it arround.
Many of masterpieces can't be moved by a singel person.
But it's usually too much to handle for average person, specially us, non professional bonsaists.

 

[M. Frary]

But it's usually too much to handle for average person, specially us, non professional bonsaists.

Why not? Are the bonsai professionals supermen too!
Pretty sure I can spin one of those guys on a finger like a Globetrotter does a basketball! Except for maybe Walter Pall. I bet he puts up a good fight!

 

[Eric Group]

I saw a website selling garden bonsai for 17k euro, how much would this bring up and how fast?

$5-$10k+ American probably in a "raw" state, ( that is what Walter Pall said about them in a recent demo he did in NC, I am far from an expert at pricing a tree like this!) maybe more if styled by Randy or Ryan... This is one of those things where they can charge pretty much what the market will pay because few people are popping these trees out in the US.

 

[Eric Group]

I love them, but I always wonder "what is the cut off between Bonsai and Landscaping?" I think I saw someone post once that if it takes more than one person to carry, it's not bonsai. Regardless,..great trees!

Specific size limits seem to vary... Seems I saw it written somewhere that around 4 feet is the max to still be considered a large Bonsai. Not sure if that is a legit rule or just something someone made up as they were writing a book... I don't even recall which book I read that in. LOL

 

[GrimLore]

Specific size limits seem to vary... Seems I saw it written somewhere that around 4 feet is the max to still be considered a large Bonsai.

Sounds like someone's personal opinion. In general Imperial: 60-80" (152-203 cm) is used as a guide line.

Grimmy

 

[Eric Group]

Sounds like someone's personal opinion. In general Imperial: 60-80" (152-203 cm) is used as a guide line.

Grimmy

I'm sure it was... I think their description was "large" for that size range anyway... I don't recall that book using the term "Imperial" at all. I need to go dig that one out and find the accurate quote I guess!

 

[klosi]

Why not? Are the bonsai professionals supermen too!
Pretty sure I can spin one of those guys on a finger like a Globetrotter does a basketball! Except for maybe Walter Pall. I bet he puts up a good fight!

I bet you can.

But still bonsai professionals usually have (strong) helping hands at nurserys (daily I believe).

 

[M. Frary]

Speaking of Globetrotters,it was on the news last week Meadowlark Lemon died.

 

[wireme]

I also think there is something to be said about not allowing it to freeze the first year or two---this is a big limiter for me--some Europeans have used heat cables to good success to avoid freezing. Western collectors have really figured a lot of this out. Clearly hyper coarse volcanic substrate, mild climate with no early freezing have been key for them.

This idea of early freezes the first year or so has been on my mind lately too, I think you're right that it can decrease survival chances.
I went after some more challenging trees this year, I have a misthouse now so put some trees that looked like they needed it in there. The trees were showing clear signs of recovery by late summer, in the climate of Portland I'm positive they would continue to recover just fine. Here where they froze up by end of sept. shortly after beginning to grow some new roots and foliage I'm worried a bit, not sure the new roots had time to gain cold hardiness etc.
Waiting for spring to see what happens.

Those big trees of Randy's are quite something for sure, a bit much to be stuck into just any old garden maybe but with a setting that does justice to the tree, awesome.

 

[mrcasey]

Fetishizing size appeals to the basest and most infantile aesthetic instincts. If we could magically shrink these trees down to 20% of their size,
would they still be perceived as having the same merit? I'm guessing that they wouldn't. Much of the wow factor of these monsters is as horticultural novelties.
I'd bet if you took the greatest bonsai artists in the world and gave them 5 years to produce the best 9" shohin pine they could, not one
of those trees would be considered as valuable as the monster Randy Knight tree even in an unworked state. A 12" trunk pine in a pot is rare and interesting,
but it's not necessarily valuable art just by virtue of it's size.

Just so you guys know the extent of my hypocrisy, I'm planning on digging some large P. virginiana this spring. I want a monster too.

Casey

p.s. Any Pinus envy joke gets reported to the moderator

 

[Bunjeh]

So I did find this reference:




Looks like up to 8 hands (80") is the cut off. Wow. Now my goal is to go to the gym so that I can lift that.

 

[fredman]

collected by Randy Knight in about 2007 with Randy. They have not had any training at all.

I don't know anything about pines...like in nil..ziltch..nada..azikalo...
Seems a long time to sit in a pot and the roots not worked. You plan on lifting it in the near future and trimming the roots back some ? How long is to long for a tree this old...or maybe getter put.... what is the right "procedure" for a pine of this age?