I was wondering if this would work.

[wireme]

So, I tried and we will see.
Easier to find and drill a small plastic lid than a tile. 6 small holes+ 6 Japanese quince seedlings that were started last year. Bets are on!

 

[M. Frary]

I'll bet it does. I've seen somewhere a Japanese guy uses plastic bags. Don't know where but I saw it. Honest. Coildnt make that up of I tried.

 

[whfarro]

Might work. My concern would be that thin plastic may stretch/expand and not give you the desired results. I've seen folks on the internet use CDs, but don't recall seeing the follow up results. Good luck, keep us posted.

 

[ColinFraser]

Even weed-bock fabric can force roots to the side and prevent downward growth, so I don't see why this wouldn't work in that fashion for any roots above it; however, I agree with @whfarro that the plastic may be too soft to cause effective girdling and ground-layering/fusion. That said, I've seen that stretchy green plastic garden 'tape' girdle small branches on landscape trees, so maybe it will be fine.

Time will tell - I look forward to your results.

 

[wireme]

Yeah, no doubt there is good reason folks have been doing this with tile and similar for so long. I wouldn't think I'm the first to experiment with plastic but I haven't seen it or heard results, just had to do something about this wonder I've been wondering.
I'm thinking its likely to work, the thin plastic edge should cut in easily. Quince is an unknown for me too, didn't have any other seedlings around.

 

[Adair M]

Usually, they plant ON a tile, not THROUGH a tile. To build a flat nebari.

Some use washers.

On those trees, I think using a flat board with holes drilled thru would work. But don't stick the tree thru the holes! Run wire up from the bottom to tie the roots down to the board. The roots would run flat against the board to the edge of the board, then go down.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Did it 3 years ago with tilia cordata, carpinus betulus, fagus. Did it with a non stretch woven fabric covered with plastic, quite hard to cut. It is used in an automated evacuation system of chicken do (need to learn more English). The fagus (3 of 4) did not grow fast enough and produced a single sided root system. The carpinus was a big bulge and a few big roots the tilia had good results (2) and (1) medium. The fabric/ plastic was bend and misformed but not broken. The roots on the photo above the plastic will take over and depending on te species will cause a one sided root system. If the plastic is strong enough to girdle, the roots above will have 2 years advantage and it is much less likely to have a uniform root system. It never hurts to try, please update...

 

[Smoke]

Usually, they plant ON a tile, not THROUGH a tile. To build a flat nebari.

Some use washers.

On those trees, I think using a flat board with holes drilled thru would work. But don't stick the tree thru the holes! Run wire up from the bottom to tie the roots down to the board. The roots would run flat against the board to the edge of the board, then go down.

Almost thirty years ago Bonsai Today ran an article from Kindai Bonsai of threading small maples thru a tile. It was a series drawn by Kyosuki Gun and it showed the clump being pushed out of the tile with a pencil. This method of layering a tree thru a tile has been done for years and has become a great way to build large spreading nebari starting with whips, not grafting and having an unscarred trunk. The method allows the root spread to start at a radial point on the tree/trees and keeps the root flat against the tile. The hole in the hard tile also allows the trunk to swell disproportionately to the trunk before it issues roots. When the tree has had enough of the constriction, it burts forth with roots all the way around above the hole allowing one to sever the new tree from the tile the next year, or allow it to continue growing on the tile top if desired.

Planting on a tile to build a flat nebari is great too, but is not really suitable for seedlings such as this poster is using. I build nebari on my maples by tying hard in a pot with no soil on the bottom of the pot. The bottom of the pot serves as the tile if you will but is not as fast as making a tree from seedlings THRU a hole in a tile. washers will do it too but they are too small to build a good spreadinh nebari. Once they reach the edge of the washer they grow down forming a claw. Cutting back when removing the tree makes the roots too short to suppor the tree and they sometimes die. Need a good two inches from the trunk to get them going.

Here are some clumps I am doing. Some are farther along while some have just started to fuse at the trunks this year and some have just started making roots above the tile this year. depends on the size of the hole and the amount of time it takes for the trunk to reach the edge of the hole and then constrict before it issues roots. All of these are just two years old in the tile. These are all being grown for Shohin size trees in the clump style.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks, Al, learn something new every day!

 

[whfarro]

A similar method is described by Peter Adams in his book Bonsai with Japanese Maples.

 

[edprocoat]

An old CD or DVD works well too.

ed

 

[jk_lewis]

I think it was issue 10 of Bonsai Today that has an article about drilling holes in a thin board (veneer-like) and poking seedlings thru the holes, then planting the entire thing.

 

[leatherback]

. I've seen folks on the internet use CDs, but don't recall seeing the follow up results.

Yeah, I have done a few like that. Works like a charm. You will need to put ome effort in getting the DVD's off afterwards, I found.

Note: They DVD's might blow up in your player when using them afterwards

 

[CWTurner]

I just did this myself a couple days ago. This is with a Bald Cypress mounted on a plastic 4"-5" lid from a pretzel container. I cut the lower roots and used a deck screw through a hole in the lid to mount the tree.

I think with yours, the fine roots wouldn't need much resistance to get them to turn. I too would suggest trimming a lot of that lower root away before planting.

 

[wireme]

I just did this myself a couple days ago. This is with a Bald Cypress mounted on a plastic 4"-5" lid from a pretzel container. I cut the lower roots and used a deck screw through a hole in the lid to mount the tree.

I think with yours, the fine roots wouldn't need much resistance to get them to turn. I too would suggest trimming a lot of that lower root away before planting.

Cool to see more projects. I was inspired to try by Smokes trees and those on Gary woods blog.

As far as pruning away the lower root, isn't the idea that that happens automatically with this method? May as well leave it for quicker recovery and growth I'd say.

Perhaps I'll do a CD and a tile too for kicks and comparison, I threw 100 quince seeds at some pots last spring so I've got enough to play with. As always, just a matter of time management and priorities, might get done.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is a follow-up result. Same trident in 2010 and 2015.

 

[wireme]

Here is a follow-up result. Same tree in 2010 and 2015.

Not a bad result there eh?

If using multiple seedlings is there an advantage to a small hole for each seedling vs the one larger hole in the c.d.?

 

[johng]

If using multiple seedlings is there an advantage to a small hole for each seedling vs the one larger hole in the c.d.?

I've had similar results to Brian... I started a bunch of tridents thru tiles and a bunch of JM through cds. For the tiles I drilled multiple holes, for the cd's I used several seedlings thru 1 hole. I had mixed results with both methods and ultimately I am not sure it really matters. 5 years later I have a couple of twin trunk tridents and several nice clumps of JM...for me, the best results came from the cds but I just think that was just happenstance (I did more with the Jm than I did with the tridents)....thru the tiles produced the better single trees

As far as the thru vs on comments... For seedlings, I start with thru and let the hole do a ground layer(about 2 seasons) resulting in nice flat radial roots...once that has occurred, I switch over to planting on a tile or board or frisbee...

As to the original question I would be concerned that the plastic would not have enough rigidity to complete the ground layer well....

 

[Smoke]

I've had similar results to Brian... I started a bunch of tridents thru tiles and a bunch of JM through cds. For the tiles I drilled multiple holes, for the cd's I used several seedlings thru 1 hole. I had mixed results with both methods and ultimately I am not sure it really matters. 5 years later I have a couple of twin trunk tridents and several nice clumps of JM...for me, the best results came from the cds but I just think that was just happenstance (I did more with the Jm than I did with the tridents)....thru the tiles produced the better single trees

As far as the thru vs on comments... For seedlings, I start with thru and let the hole do a ground layer(about 2 seasons) resulting in nice flat radial roots...once that has occurred, I switch over to planting on a tile or board or frisbee...

As to the original question I would be concerned that the plastic would not have enough rigidity to complete the ground layer well....

I agree about the lack of rigidity for a good layer. One wants the issue of roots to be straight line around the trunk. Flex from floppy material will allow the roots to push the plastic up and down just like it does with concrete at your sidewalk.

 

[Paulpash]

Another factor that you must take account of is species - Quince do not fatten very quickly at all. It may take longer to fuse than the plastic has in terms of maintaining a viable structure - even plastic breaks down and gets brittle over time.