i need of some guidance

[painter]

i apologize for posting on jkl's informative thread.
here are some photos of my jbp
it has some problems, and i am using this tree to learn
it has a big chop at the top, the 2 lower sections lack taper and the lowest branch needs ramification while upper portions of the tree need further thickening
this is my first black pine and would appreciate any guidance my teacher doesnt really work with them
thanks and sorry jkl

 

[iant]

Is the date on your camera correct? 2004?
Ian

 

[stacy allen muse]

???????????????

 

[painter]

agreed stacy , ill seek out the design and go from there.
no the date is not correct on the camera i never reset it after recharging the batteries.
p

 

[painter]

here we go

 

[painter]

i removed what i thought were branches that could have been used as an alternate tree or top of a new tree. i decandled using method 2, leaving longer stubs in stronger areas and no stub in weaker areas. and didnt remove the absolute weakest candles.
you can see the trunk line better
i still think i need to let the top grow to heal the wound
any thoughts.
i was gonna watch it a year and learn about jbp but i also didnt want to loose a year. so if it dies; i learned to watch it a year.

 

[stacy allen muse]

??????????????

 

[iant]

The biggest challenge with this tree as I see it (if you want to shoot for a great looking JBP bonsai) is the lack of taper. When you look at the base compared to the point 2/3 up it looks to be about the same. If you had a really low sacrifice branch you could correct this with that. As it stands, however, you have to decide if that bothers you or not. If it doesn't then you can develop your ramification and heal the top wound and make a very nice JPB bonsai.
But to me I would be bothered by the taper... So I would consider making the tree out of one of the branches in the first whorl. It would set you back a ways and you'd have a lot less tree but then you'd have a much shorter section of no taper (from the soil to the first whorl.) You could grow the new tree out of one of the first whorl branches and then from there you could develop taper. You'd want to keep the other (non-leader) branches at the first whorl very well contained so as not to have too much going on at that level and create reverse taper. Ultimately you'd save only one opposing branch as the first branch (or none.)
It's an option to consider....
But every tree could be better in some way and you don't want to be too much of a perfectionist. So it's fine to keep it as is and develop it as is. This is just one option to consider that would take it a step back in order to take steps forward later.
Ian
p.s. I also think your tree will be fine. JBPs are tough. It looks healthy.

 

[painter]

thanks ian and stacy.
ian i do realize the lack of taper from section one to two. as of right now i will leave it and learn with this tree, knowing it will not be great, and maybe get something to pop in below the first branch to help with the problem at hand. this is my first black pine, i can always chop it down in the future.
p

 

[QuintinBonsai]

That looks like one of George Muranaka's pines am I correct? The tree looks good in my opinion. Maybe by next spring you can repot in nice bonsai pot. Have you seen Brian Van Fleet's PDF on JBPs? It mainly focuses on seasonal candle trimming, but still, you can seen how his nursery pine developed into an established tree.

 

[painter]

whats next

i need to remove extra candles , some have 3 some have 2 some have 1.
i plan on removing the stongest of the 3 candles and leaving the opposites when possible. i will be leaving the single ones.
when removing needles do you recommend candle cutting or pulling?
this is a japanese black pine , which was candle cut on june 6 using the stub method.
i also plan eventually removing the top and shortening the tree when is the best time for that?
this is the selected front angle.
thanks.
painter

 

[tmmason10]

It looks great! I just pull the needles from the base of the pair. Late fall is a good time for cutting to forks, wiring, and pulling needles.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

i need to remove extra candles , some have 3 some have 2 some have 1.
i plan on removing the stongest of the 3 candles and leaving the opposites when possible. i will be leaving the single ones.
when removing needles do you recommend candle cutting or pulling?
this is a japanese black pine , which was candle cut on june 6 using the stub method.
i also plan eventually removing the top and shortening the tree when is the best time for that?
this is the selected front angle.
thanks.
painter
View attachment 26758View attachment 26759

Looking healthy. Yes, you can pull out old needles on black pine. Start with the downward-facing ones, then get the big ones, then balance the density.

Prune shoots to pairs, correct, and try to keep those that are emerging at 9:00 and 3:00...across from each other, it makes wiring easier, and a more natural finished look.

Prune heavy branches in winter, but wait and see if its necessary once it's thinned out. Evergreens can hide a lot of flaws (temporarily) while their replacements are developed.

I've been adding a few updates on a black pine I'm working in that is very much in the same state of development as yours is. If you haven't, check out the recent photos here:
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?5299-Peter-Warren-Demo-in-Birmingham-AL/page2

 

[painter]

thank you brian vf.
just a moment of clarification
when you say downward facing needles you mean the ones on the underside of the branch correct?
and what would you say is good rule of thumb for density 5 sets in stronger areas and 10 in weaker?
thanks again for your input and your website ive been reading it alot.
painter.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Yes, those that point down. Makes the undersides tidier, and they're not much use anyway because they're shaded out and shading out what's underneath.

You're probably good with leaving 6 pairs on strong and 10 on weak.

 

[wlambeth]

Reverse Taper

To help add some taper to the soil line I've used a technique of tightly wrapping wire around the trunk just below the soil line.
This causes the trunk to buldge just above the wire.
In time from that buldge you can develop good nebari.

However you will need to tranplant the tree to the ground or a large and deep grow box.

This technique will get you the taper needed in less time than it would take by air-layering and losing the movement in the trunk.

Hope this helps.

 

[painter]

thanks everyone got time to get at it today.
pullin needles and candles
im on it.
painter

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

To help add some taper to the soil line I've used a technique of tightly wrapping wire around the trunk just below the soil line.
This causes the trunk to buldge just above the wire.
In time from that buldge you can develop good nebari.

However you will need to tranplant the tree to the ground or a large and deep grow box.

This technique will get you the taper needed in less time than it would take by air-layering and losing the movement in the trunk.

Hope this helps.

A suggestion like this may be more acceptable with some photos showing your results...it's a controversial technique I've really avoided.

 

[Adair M]

There is probably some truth to that technique...

Last spring I bought a JBP that was meant to be a garden tree. But it has incredible taper between the ground and the first branch. It was about 7 feet tall, I chopped it down to about 18 inches.

Anyway...

When I started messing with the roots, I found it had been up-potted several times. And unfortunately, roots had encircled the trunk right at the soil line, which contributed to making that great taper. The trunk is probably 4 1/2 inches at the soil line.

So, I did some major root pruning/straightening/redirecting/uncircling. There is an indentention that looks like what wire damage looks like, made by the circling roots. It is apparant that the constricting roots contributed to the taper.

John Kirby suggested that I pack in some spaghnum moss there. I might get roots, as if I airlayered. None have started yet. I'm really not expecting any, I'm just hoping the "root scar" goes away with time.

 

[fore]

I'd too like to see any pics that this technique works. Have a JRP with a bit of r. taper.

And Adair, I too have tried the sphagnum moss on a Cypress, JBP, and a Larch...no luck either with new roots. I'm beginning to think that an approach graft is the only solution...