I just got a Hime Shojo and Tamukeyama - would like trunk advice

[Bonsai Babby]

Hello,

I got the last of my two trees (for now) in the mail. They are Japanese Maple, Hime Shojo and Tamukayama, both are grafted.

My plan for the Hime Shojo is to just try to make it into a mini tree, not really go for dramatic trunk tapering etc.

For the Tamukayama, I want to do trunk chops and get a wild tapering trunk... these are what I envision. I don't know how to accomplish it but I am reading a lot and trying to learn.

I could also switch methods too if either tree looks like it won't be suitable for what I want.

First I have a question - can I scrape the bark and ground layer them below the graft line to get rid of the grafted area? Is that a bad or stupid idea?

If I just leave it, will the grafted area look nicer later? Or is it always gonna be a big bumpy spot? Here are pictures. My immediate plan is to move them to training pots and let them grow. If there is anything I should do differently that will help them develop into their final forms, I would be very grateful to hear any advice.

Hime Shojo:


Tamukeyama:


And here are the full pictures of each:

 

[Shibui]

How grafts develop is unpredictable. Mostly the expanding trunk will cover up any unevenness from the graft but occasionally one side of the graft grows more and we end up with an unattractive bulge.

Layering just below the graft is a tried and tested method to disguise grafts. Some growers layer above the graft but there are some cultivars that don't seem to produce roots, in which case you'll kill the top part of the tree you just paid for. Root stocks are much more likely to layer so, while layering below is not guaranteed to work, it's much safer than above IMHO. Any problems with graft bulges tend to be disguised as the nebari and lower trunk develop.

I can see some black marks just above and below the graft union on both these trees. May be nothing to worry about but I'd take some clear photos now as possible evidence in case these trees do not survive. Black bark on JM is often a sign of fungal infection and can be fatal. I'm not 100% certain just from your photos. Might be something else entirely but worth a warning to keep close watch to see if the black areas spread.

 

[Bonsai Babby]

How grafts develop is unpredictable. Mostly the expanding trunk will cover up any unevenness from the graft but occasionally one side of the graft grows more and we end up with an unattractive bulge.

Layering just below the graft is a tried and tested method to disguise grafts. Some growers layer above the graft but there are some cultivars that don't seem to produce roots, in which case you'll kill the top part of the tree you just paid for. Root stocks are much more likely to layer so, while layering below is not guaranteed to work, it's much safer than above IMHO. Any problems with graft bulges tend to be disguised as the nebari and lower trunk develop.

I can see some black marks just above and below the graft union on both these trees. May be nothing to worry about but I'd take some clear photos now as possible evidence in case these trees do not survive. Black bark on JM is often a sign of fungal infection and can be fatal. I'm not 100% certain just from your photos. Might be something else entirely but worth a warning to keep close watch to see if the black areas spread.

Thanks very much for the info. Regarding the black marks, it seems to be the remnants of paste or something that was used during grafting, I don't think it is fungus. Your advice about layering just below the graft is very useful. I'm not going to do anything for several months so I have time to think about it. I will look at the black marks more carefully tomorrow, but my first impression was that it was some sort of paste, and the place I got them from has a great reputation so I am sure they wouldn't send trees out that had a problem.

 

[Shibui]

I will look at the black marks more carefully tomorrow, but my first impression was that it was some sort of paste, and the place I got them from has a great reputation so I am sure they wouldn't send trees out that had a problem.

That was what I had hoped but could not be sure from the photos. Makes sense that it might be remains of some sort of grafting wax or tape.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

For the Tamukayama, I want to do trunk chops and get a wild tapering trunk... these are what I envision. I don't know how to accomplish it but I am reading a lot and trying to learn.

Tamukayama is a weeping dissectum, as opposed to an upright palmatum. The weeping trait will pose certain design challenges, as will the dissectum trait. I attached some pictures that I had saved from the internet, and one picture that I took at a garden in Omiya Bonsai Village. 'Wild taper' will certainly be a challenge, and you may want to consider something more tall and elegant that will allow you to space out branches.

From memory, I believe the green cascade was a 'seiryu', an weeping upright dissectum, and therefore not a good example of what can be done with your cultivar's trunk.

If you're committed to the idea of designing a weeping dissectum with big taper, one good option would be to develop an Acer palmatum trunk and subsequently (in many years from now) graft Tamukayama onto it. I've seen this done a few times.

 

[Bonsai Babby]

Tamukayama is a weeping dissectum, as opposed to an upright palmatum. The weeping trait will pose certain design challenges, as will the dissectum trait. I attached some pictures that I had saved from the internet, and one picture that I took at a garden in Omiya Bonsai Village. 'Wild taper' will certainly be a challenge, and you may want to consider something more tall and elegant that will allow you to space out branches.

From memory, I believe the green cascade was a 'seiryu', an weeping upright dissectum, and therefore not a good example of what can be done with your cultivar's trunk.

If you're committed to the idea of designing a weeping dissectum with big taper, one good option would be to develop an Acer palmatum trunk and subsequently (in many years from now) graft Tamukayama onto it. I've seen this done a few times.

Wow, this is exactly the sort of advice I was hoping for! Thank you very much. I arbitrarily chose a plan for each tree with no reason one way or the other. I am not committed to it. The pictures you posted look amazing. They are all really nice, the second, third, and fifth ones are just stunning. So I'll not go for the thick trunk chopping stuff with the Tamukeyama.

Do you know if the Hime Shojo is the same sort of tree? Should I make both of them nice elegant sweeping trees?

Is it naive to pick two trees out of the ones you posted and use them as inspiration and guidance for my two trees? I am a beginner, but I should have a goal in mind... are those goals too lofty? If I did, I think I would choose images 1 and 5 for my goals. When I look at those trees I feel happy.

 

[Bonsai Babby]

I repotted both into training pots with about 3-4 inches of soil.

Is there anything I should do now with the trunks, or just let them grow?

 

[clem]

I repotted both into training pots with about 3-4 inches of soil.

Is there anything I should do now with the trunks, or just let them grow?

If they were mine, i would try to air layer both of them to remove the unsightly graft point. A tourniquet on a small branch in spring + sphanum moss is usually enough to see roots in autumn. It is what I do, it works, except for the seigen which does not produce roots, for the moment.

From an artistic point of view, it's always better to grow a young plant that has curves, rather than one with a very stiff start, like yours. If you look at the pics above, you'll see that the trunks of those great trees have curves, even at the lower trunk level

 

[Ininaatigoons]

I would not start by taking them off their roots. Dissectum type are notorious for not growing strong enough on their own roots. Tamukeyama might be one that does, but not knowing, I think try to get some cutting grown off that stock plant and grow the stock plant. I have hime shojo. It has a bulbous graft, but I have not succeeded in getting cuttings yet. Red types are also more difficult to air layer. It can be done with some, but I tried 3 times with my Bloodgood. Did not yet succeed, but cuttings from Bloodgood and Emperor 1 worked with good percentage.
I really do love the naturally small leaves and red color of Hime Shojo.
In thinking of these as stock plants I'd grow them out in larger nursery cans or pots or the ground. You can train with rope ties and pruning for a while. Wire marks maples fast and scar stays for a long time.
Tamukeyama and Hime Shojo are both beautiful cultivars.