How to create large black pines?

[Anthony]

"The secret of a beautiful J.B.pine is a few heavy branches "

But to grow for export, is to convince the Westerners, to make the trunks look big
use thin branches.
Also allows for rapid growing and refined branches or collected stumps.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/03/02/sacrifice-branches-black-pine/
And
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/2013/07/13/sacrifice-branches-black-pine-part-2/

Excellent photos, Brian.

The only thing I can add is it appears you started with older stock. The lower trunk is pretty much set. It will be difficult to add any taper between the nebari and the first branch (or where ever your first sacrifice is).

My experience is that sacrifice branches below the apex are not nearly as effective at putting on wood as the apical sacrifices are. So, it’s easier to build in taper using a series of single apical sacrifices rather than trying to fix or add taper to an existing trunk using multiple lower sacrifice branches.

Telperion Farms grew the first tree I posted, and they used a series of sacrifice branches to develop that wide tapering base. Then, once the shape of the base was achieved, then they let a single apical sacrifice grow tall, about 12 to 15 feet! This stage put on the heavy wood, but it was the previous grow and chop stages that created the taper. Once they chopped the tall sacrifice,they started another to 1) heal the chop, and 2) build the next trunk segment.

 

[Adair M]

"The secret of a beautiful J.B.pine is a few heavy branches "

But to grow for export, is to convince the Westerners, to make the trunks look big
use thin branches.
Also allows for rapid growing and refined branches or collected stumps.
Good Day
Anthony

Lol!!! Anthony, they don’t have to “make the branches small to make the trunks look big”. They ARE big! They grow JBP by the hundreds (thousands?) in the ground in Japan. The ones they export are the culls that no one in Japan would buy!

 

[Anthony]

And you buy these Sifu ?????????????????????????

What an amazingly honest man you are !!!!!

Once again let you know how long it takes for us to reach 3 inch, maybe we will do
a 5 inch trunk, be nice to have a 30 inch tall to match the Tamarind.
The first test plant planted just an hour or so ago.
Have space for 2 more.

Thanks for responding.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[rockm]

A "culled" tree in Japan is a relative thing. Just because no one bought them there doesn't mean they're still not excellent--they're just not the absolute best.

These are "culled" Satsukis exported to the U.S. for sale because they're not perfect...
http://satsuki-bonsai.com/height-ov...ht over 70cm&zenid=uojj14gpcbf6q8fhcdfasbsq21

 

[Adair M]

And you buy these Sifu ?????????????????????????

What an amazingly honest man you are !!!!!

Once again let you know how long it takes for us to reach 3 inch, maybe we will do
a 5 inch trunk, be nice to have a 30 inch tall to match the Tamarind.
The first test plant planted just an hour or so ago.
Have space for 2 more.

Thanks for responding.
Good Day
Anthony

Actually, no, I have not bought any recently imported JBP. I do have a couple that were imported 25 years ago. These I buy from those that imported them, or they purchased them soon after they were imported. These hobbiests are getting on in years, and they have taken good care of the trees, and want to pass them on to someone who will continue maintain and improve them. Several have asked me to buy their tree, not for the money, but so it will be under my care.

The two trees I posted in this thread were grown in the US by nurserymen. The first iss from Telperion Farms. I’m guessing it was about 20 years old when I purchased it, I’ve owned it 6 years. The second was grown at Lone Tree nursery in Santa Rosa. I don’t know the age. I suspect about the same as the other. I’ve owned it 3 years. I had another from Lone Pine, but I sold it to Boon as I had enough project trees, and had recently purchased a couple mature trees, which take more time to maintain. Since I only have x amount of time when I visit Boon, I have to manage what I have there so that all the trees get proper attention.

 

[Adair M]

A "culled" tree in Japan is a relative thing. Just because no one bought them there doesn't mean they're still not excellent--they're just not the absolute best.

These are "culled" Satsukis exported to the U.S. for sale because they're not perfect...
http://satsuki-bonsai.com/height-over-70cm-c-4/?page=Height over 70cm&zenid=uojj14gpcbf6q8fhcdfasbsq21

Maybe not “excellent”, just “better than what’s generally available here”. A couple of those you couldn’t pay me to take!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

The only thing I can add is it appears you started with older stock. The lower trunk is pretty much set. It will be difficult to add any taper between the nebari and the first branch (or where ever your first sacrifice is).

Actually, it put on quite a bit of girth when it was in the ground for a few years. I bought it at Brussels in 2008, and put in the ground in 2012, and by the time I dug it up in 2015, it had doubled. I sold it last year sometime. The apical sacrifice branch absolutely creates a buttressed trunk if you let the top wave in the winds for a few seasons.
July 2012 and December 2014:

It would be 6” wide by now if it was still in the ground.

 

[MichaelS]

Adair M, post: 509309, member: 13405"]
Here’s another example of growing a trunk:

That's an example of growing branches. You don't grow trunks is bonsai pots.
The thread question was ''how to create large black pines''
BVF's example is better but still does not demonstrate how to create large ones. You need 10 times more branches than that to start with.
In other words we start with a tree and worry about bonsai later. You don't start with a bonsai and try to make it larger.

 

[Adair M]

That's an example of growing branches. You don't grow trunks is bonsai pots.
The thread question was ''how to create large black pines''
BVF's example is better but still does not demonstrate how to create large ones. You need 10 times more branches than that to start with.
In other words we start with a tree and worry about bonsai later. You don't start with a bonsai and try to make it larger.

You are right, my example was not the process of growing trunk, my tree was an example of a trunk that had been grown using the techniques I described. And only once the trunk is complete is it time to create branches.

 

[Adair M]

Actually, it put on quite a bit of girth when it was in the ground for a few years. I bought it at Brussels in 2008, and put in the ground in 2012, and by the time I dug it up in 2015, it had doubled. I sold it last year sometime. The apical sacrifice branch absolutely creates a buttressed trunk if you let the top wave in the winds for a few seasons.
July 2012 and December 2014:
View attachment 167923 View attachment 167925 View attachment 167924
It would be 6” wide by now if it was still in the ground.

Oh, no doubt the trunk got bigger while in the ground. And a nice buttrass is developed at the nebari. But, the basic shape and taper of the lower trunk stayed the same.

I am a fan of “Sumo” bonsai. Not everyone is. They’re not very realistic. They are an exaggeration. But I admire the skill it takes to create one. The same can be said about the pancake nebari. Not natural.

But that’s ok. There are real trees all around me. I like bonsai because it’s an art, sculpture. Using trees instead of stone.

 

[jrw]

Also, take a look at the exposed root method over @ BonsaiTonight
https://bonsaitonight.com/2017/11/28/how-to-create-exposed-root-pine-bonsai

 

[Drew]

@Adair M this is one I have growing. Is this what you are explaining? I have three branches at the first node:

#1 is the first branch
#2 is the sacrafice branch
#3 is the second trunk section



Would you then be de-candling #1 and #3 branch or maybe just #1 branch until the first section of trunk is at the desired thickness?

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M this is one I have growing. Is this what you are explaining? I have three branches at the first node:

#1 is the first branch
#2 is the sacrafice branch
#3 is the second trunk section

View attachment 169019 View attachment 169021 View attachment 169022

Would you then be de-candling #1 and #3 branch or maybe just #1 branch until the first section of trunk is at the desired thickness?

Yep. Next summer!

 

[Adair M]

That sacrifice needs to stay on for a couple of years. And if you really want a bigger trunk, it needs a larger container.

 

[Drew]

if you really want a bigger trunk, it needs a larger container.

I was thinking of waiting for the tree to fill the pot with roots this season then planting it out into the ground next season on wards or would you just put it in the ground this spring?

 

[iant]

It may be easier to thicken with an apical sacrifice but I've had no problem thickening a trunk with low side sacrifices. Three large low sacrifices made this tree very wide before I cut them off.
Unfortunately with this tree I killed it by cutting off too much canopy without reducing the roots. Too many roots... not enough canopy... too much moisture below.... no bueno.

But it's easier to see the thickening with it dead

sniff sniff,
Ian




For reference from several years back:
The sacrifices ended up being the branch on the low left close to soil line, the one going straight back away behind the tree that's about the size of a sharpie pen, and the low branch on the right that passes behind the metal pole.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Sorry for your loss. Nice taper.

 

[River's Edge]

I was thinking of waiting for the tree to fill the pot with roots this season then planting it out into the ground next season on wards or would you just put it in the ground this spring?

You can do both. Put the pond basket in the ground this spring. It will get the benefit of the ground placement without the setback of root disruption. Let it go for a year, pull the basket and trim the roots pushing out of the holes, take it out of the basket and put it back in the ground. Limited disruption, continuous advantage of the ground stability for growing maximum.

 

[0soyoung]

You can do both. Put the pond basket in the ground this spring. It will get the benefit of the ground placement without the setback of root disruption. Let it go for a year, pull the basket and trim the roots pushing out of the holes, take it out of the basket and put it back in the ground. Limited disruption, continuous advantage of the ground stability for growing maximum.

What is the point of a pond basket in this scheme as opposed to, say, just planting it and using a sharp spade to root prune in situ every year?