How should I handle this BC ?

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

Top leader was damaged during shipping, and died within a month. The rest of the tree is doing awesome. I want to chop the dead branch & start a new one around the same location, any advice?






I'm thinking of designing the BC into something similar to this style.



Old pic of the full tree. At the early stage of my tree design should I leave all the bottom branches or remove them?

 

[Shibui]

Definitely remove the dead leader. There are plenty of other options to replace it close by but that may mean reducing the stump a bit at some stage.
Looking at the overall view I'm wondering whether chopping shorter might be a better option anyway. The existing trunk seems to be very tall and skinny. Building a new leader will only add more height and make the final tree look even skinnier.
Do you have any vision of ultimate height for this one?

 

[rockm]

It is waaaay too tall. It needs about a third more reduced .The top third is monotonous. I'd do that next spring.

 

[oranjeaap]

Yes I was about to write exactly the same thing about the tree being tall and a new leader in that spot making it even taller. If that is what you are after that's fine I guess. But with a new leader lower on the trunk you will eventually still end up with a tree that is as tall as it is now.
In any case, it looks like you got a cluster of branches near the old leader so you're risking inverse taper in that area which might further complicate things.

 

[Cajunrider]

About it being tall, it is up to your design decision. I've seen a lot of beautiful tall flat top by @johng and Randy Bennett. Since the top of a BC can be developed quickly, I've left all my trees tall. It's a tall task to ship but then the tree owner can make the decision afterward. Since it will be a flat top, pick any branch at the position and angle you want and pruned off all others near the selected one. Once the new leader is established you can chop and carve to shape the trunk.

 

[Dav4]

Yeah, that's a nice trunk with taper and subtle movement all the way to the top, which means you have options . If you want a tall, more delicate tree, then pick a new leader and let it run. If you want a shorter, more powerful trunk, then chop lower... there may be an existing branch that could be the next leader if you like. Fwiw, beginning to pick keeper branches on the lower trunk and wiring them out for shape now is something I'd be doing. Seeing a nice BC in the mitten makes me almost regret leaving the big one I had down in GA...almost.

 

[rockm]

Many of the BC flat tops I see under development are also waaaaay too tall. It seems to be becoming a thing with those just getting into BC bonsai. Particularly Yankees unfamiliar with the species. Tall is ok. Tall and boring not so much you have to ask yourself in designing a tree when a branch or trunk section is just monotonous and mostly valueless to the design. The top third of this one has no movement and very little added taper. It’s not worth keeping

Beginners are also faint of heart in doing big reductions and try to”save” what they’re cutting off instead of just doing it and moving on. That inclination is counterproductive and clouds what you have to do to the primary tree. Trying to get a good air layer can come at the expense of the main tree

 

[rockm]

Another mistake beginners make is to be waaay too attached to existing branching. What is present mostly on newly collected trees is only there to support life of the trunk. It is mostly expendable (particularly with BC which has no problems pushing new shoots mostly anywhere). Sure. Try to select some branches that are in the “right”place in your future design but after a year or so the existing branches are expendable

Additionally the first branching on most deciduous trees immediately post collection grow straight upwards from the emergence at the trunk. That’s a bad way to begin developing a design branch. If you’re set on using a particular branch wire it laterally as soon as possible to prevent that 90 degree bend

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

Definitely remove the dead leader. There are plenty of other options to replace it close by but that may mean reducing the stump a bit at some stage.
Looking at the overall view I'm wondering whether chopping shorter might be a better option anyway. The existing trunk seems to be very tall and skinny. Building a new leader will only add more height and make the final tree look even skinnier.
Do you have any vision of ultimate height for this one?

The tree is 33 inches tall and I'm thinking it would look good around 24 inches. The base of the trunk is a little over 3 inches. I'm thinking of chopping here. What do you think?

About it being tall, it is up to your design decision. I've seen a lot of beautiful tall flat top by @johng and Randy Bennett. Since the top of a BC can be developed quickly, I've left all my trees tall. It's a tall task to ship but then the tree owner can make the decision afterward. Since it will be a flat top, pick any branch at the position and angle you want and pruned off all others near the selected one. Once the new leader is established you can chop and carve to shape the trunk.

Many thanks.

Yeah, that's a nice trunk with taper and subtle movement all the way to the top, which means you have options . If you want a tall, more delicate tree, then pick a new leader and let it run. If you want a shorter, more powerful trunk, then chop lower... there may be an existing branch that could be the next leader if you like. Fwiw, beginning to pick keeper branches on the lower trunk and wiring them out for shape now is something I'd be doing. Seeing a nice BC in the mitten makes me almost regret leaving the big one I had down in GA...almost.

I'm thinking the same thing. I do have a much bigger one that I'm letting get established this year, also picking bottom branches as I want to try formal upright. Here's a pick from April 6th when I received it.

Many of the BC flat tops I see under development are also waaaaay too tall. It seems to be becoming a thing with those just getting into BC bonsai. Particularly Yankees unfamiliar with the species. Tall is ok. Tall and boring not so much you have to ask yourself in designing a tree when a branch or trunk section is just monotonous and mostly valueless to the design. The top third of this one has no movement and very little added taper. It’s not worth keeping

Beginners are also faint of heart in doing big reductions and try to”save” what they’re cutting off instead of just doing it and moving on. That inclination is counterproductive and clouds what you have to do to the primary tree. Trying to get a good air layer can come at the expense of the main tree

I agree it's too tall. (33") Where would you chop it? I'd like to think I'm past the cautious beginner phase of BC seeing how dang fast they grow. I have another one that I have chopped/carved. Even a yankee can do it. I just hope I'm yanking what I think I should be yankin.

Another mistake beginners make is to be waaay too attached to existing branching. What is present mostly on newly collected trees is only there to support life of the trunk. It is mostly expendable (particularly with BC which has no problems pushing new shoots mostly anywhere). Sure. Try to select some branches that are in the “right”place in your future design but after a year or so the existing branches are expendable

Additionally the first branching on most deciduous trees immediately post collection grow straight upwards from the emergence at the trunk. That’s a bad way to begin developing a design branch. If you’re set on using a particular branch wire it laterally as soon as possible to prevent that 90 degree bend

These BC grow way too fast to be holding on to all the branches. If I see some in the right place like you said I'll definitely try and keep them. Thanks for the advice. Click on the link I posted and LMK your thoughts on that one as I'm all ears.

 

[Shibui]

The tree is 33 inches tall and I'm thinking it would look good around 24 inches. The base of the trunk is a little over 3 inches. I'm thinking of chopping here. What do you think?

No scale in any of the pics so it's hard to assess how high the new chop is. Given the total height is currently 33" I'm guessing that new chop is at around the 34" mentioned? Have you allowed for the new apex to develop? I find that newbies forget the tree will grow taller while developing the new leader/apex. Often as much as 1/3 taller so if you chop at 24" it's likely your finished tree will be somewhere around 30-36". You can see how much extra height has been added to your example tree in post #1. The first chop on that one is probably just above the 3rd branch where the bark changes.

No problem if you want a tall, thin tree. I'm just trying to make you aware of the likely outcome of a higher chop.

 

[rockm]

The tree is 33 inches tall and I'm thinking it would look good around 24 inches. The base of the trunk is a little over 3 inches. I'm thinking of chopping here. What do you think?
View attachment 601944


Many thanks.


I'm thinking the same thing. I do have a much bigger one that I'm letting get established this year, also picking bottom branches as I want to try formal upright. Here's a pick from April 6th when I received it.
View attachment 601945


I agree it's too tall. (33") Where would you chop it? I'd like to think I'm past the cautious beginner phase of BC seeing how dang fast they grow. I have another one that I have chopped/carved. Even a yankee can do it. I just hope I'm yanking what I think I should be yankin.


These BC grow way too fast to be holding on to all the branches. If I see some in the right place like you said I'll definitely try and keep them. Thanks for the advice. Click on the link I posted and LMK your thoughts on that one as I'm all ears.

Still too tall IMO. I'd take it down to that thicker left side branch.

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

No scale in any of the pics so it's hard to assess how high the new chop is. Given the total height is currently 33" I'm guessing that new chop is at around the 34" mentioned? Have you allowed for the new apex to develop? I find that newbies forget the tree will grow taller while developing the new leader/apex. Often as much as 1/3 taller so if you chop at 24" it's likely your finished tree will be somewhere around 30-36". You can see how much extra height has been added to your example tree in post #1. The first chop on that one is probably just above the 3rd branch where the bark changes.

No problem if you want a tall, thin tree. I'm just trying to make you aware of the likely outcome of a higher chop.

True, I did consider that. I just have no frame of reference to know how much bigger a BC will get during development. Knowing it could grow another 6 to 12 inches helps. Thanks.

Still too tall IMO. I'd take it down to that thicker left side branch.

I do like the look of this chop. Thanks.

 

[littletreefarmer]

I would personally chop it here. Probably in early fall or next spring, after thinning the upper growth and allowing one of the branches at that chop site to thicken. Once you grow a new leader for 2-3 seasons post-chop you'll have much better taper, and you can also wire the new leader to get a lil movement, if desired.

I only have one big BC right now, but a lower chop will work magic for the overall power of the final tree. This thing is super tall as is, and if the trunk girth is only 3 inches you really need to consider height as a huge point of the final composition. I don't think a 1:8 or more ratio will make a very powerful tree, unless you want a more elegant flat top.

 

[littletreefarmer]

Look at photos of BC in natural swamps or bogs down south. The really impressive ones have super impressive taper. Some look to be almost 1:3 or 1:4 width to height at the waterline. Just imagine what you want, and be brave with your design choices. As you said, they're vigorous, even up north for us yankees (I'm from GA originally though) so go hard.

Edit: The tree in your example photo has had 2 different trunk chops, with 2 leaders grown out at different stages. You can always plan to do that.

 

[rockm]

IMOThis tree lends itself more to a long lean flat top style not the squat pyramidal “immature” variant style of BC bonsai. Styles of BC are taken from BC in nature growing in different environments as well as age.

BC silhouettes change as they grow in nature. They tend to get really tall fast then begin dying back from the top or have their tops snapped off by hurricanes. They then push growth lower in their trunks as more light becomes available. That is what flat top style is- an old BC growing in a shallower swamp.

Extreme fluting and short trunked BC are usually associated with long time deep water growing. Below the visible portion of the trunk in the wild the fluting can look something like a glass bottle

 

[Cajunrider]

As I mentioned before, it is up to the tree owner design. For me this tree has the bones to be an elegant one similar to the famous one from Vaugh Banting. The buttresses on the tree are slender but distinctive. I expect the root base to swell in the coming years. However, I don't see the tree becoming a bonsai with super-impressive taper so the very low chop suggested is not where I think the tree should be. I think a relatively high chop with a long carve down for taper and the development of a flat top that add 8-10" will get the tree to a beautiful form. Of course that is just my opinion. MTM's opinion is the one that counts.

On the other hand, we definitely can chop low and split the bottom to get the super impressive taper but then it is such as waste of the trunk movement. MTM and I worked hard to find such a tree.

 

[littletreefarmer]

Movement? I'll just leave this here. This photo is always my inspiration for a mature looking BC.

Impressive taper and elegant movement don't have to be exclusive of one another. Be patient and make the tree you want. I agree, though, the owner's/artist's vision is most important.

 

[Cajunrider]

View attachment 602042
Movement? I'll just leave this here. This photo is always my inspiration for a mature looking BC.

Impressive taper and elegant movement don't have to be exclusive of one another. Be patient and make the tree you want. I agree, though, the owner's/artist's vision is most important.

No they don't have to be exclusive of one another. I have BCs that look very much like those above. I just don't think the tree that MTM has fit into this look. It doesn't have a root base like those in your picture. In 30 years may be, but not in the next 5 years.

 

[rockm]

View attachment 602042
Movement? I'll just leave this here. This photo is always my inspiration for a mature looking BC.

Impressive taper and elegant movement don't have to be exclusive of one another. Be patient and make the tree you want. I agree, though, the owner's/artist's vision is most important.

That’s too bad. They come in so many forms behind this example. And yes elegant movement is subjective. Vaughn Bantings groundbreaking flat top bonsai has its impact in the long graceful trunk that hit home with those familiar with the species in the landscape.

 

[Michigan Tree Murderer]

Look at photos of BC in natural swamps or bogs down south. The really impressive ones have super impressive taper. Some look to be almost 1:3 or 1:4 width to height at the waterline. Just imagine what you want, and be brave with your design choices. As you said, they're vigorous, even up north for us yankees (I'm from GA originally though) so go hard.

Edit: The tree in your example photo has had 2 different trunk chops, with 2 leaders grown out at different stages. You can always plan to do that.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I think the chop you like is too low for my liking. I appreciate your viewpoints and feedback. Now I have a lot more to think about.