How do you tackle tangled surface roots on a nursery bought pine?

[Vance Wood]

I thought I've read where you can just cut 1/3 of the diam. off yr 1, another 1/3 yr 2, and finally cut it off yr 3.

Yes you can do that, and I have written about that many times. This particular tree is no where near that root bound to require that kind of treatment. However; you are still faced with straightening out the roots on the inside of the diameter of the soil mass. If you have the opportunity to take care of that now it is better than waiting till sometime in the future. The old expression that there is more than one way to skin a cat comes into operation here.

 

[edprocoat]

I have never had much luck with pines due to never having a winter period for them or maybe just the heat. On root bound nursery plants I have never had one fail from root pruning. I generally cut off almost half the bottom roots and I save some of the soil I remove from there. Then I generally make a circular cut around the pot perimeter about a fourth of the outer edge is removed. I have had the kind that the roots are so thick up top with fines its like a solid piece, when they are like that I just lift it up a bit and in a few months they sort of die off like in a colander as they are exposed to air.

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

I have never had much luck with pines due to never having a winter period for them or maybe just the heat. On root bound nursery plants I have never had one fail from root pruning. I generally cut off almost half the bottom roots and I save some of the soil I remove from there. Then I generally make a circular cut around the pot perimeter about a fourth of the outer edge is removed. I have had the kind that the roots are so thick up top with fines its like a solid piece, when they are like that I just lift it up a bit and in a few months they sort of die off like in a colander as they are exposed to air.

ed

How do you like this winter? I was always under the impression that you guys have almost the same winter as we have up here in Michigan. Be it in colanders or Pond Baskets the entire concept is to have the tree exposed to air that's what air pruning is all about. I don't understand way you are losing trees. I have been in Ohio and there is at least one very active bonsai club there. If your trees are dying, as you put it, "like in a colander as they are exposed to air" you are doing something wrong. It is human nature to blame something other than ourselves when things go wrong.

 

[edprocoat]

How do you like this winter? I was always under the impression that you guys have almost the same winter as we have up here in Michigan. Be it in colanders or Pond Baskets the entire concept is to have the tree exposed to air that's what air pruning is all about. I don't understand way you are losing trees. I have been in Ohio and there is at least one very active bonsai club there. If your trees are dying, as you put it, "like in a colander as they are exposed to air" you are doing something wrong. It is human nature to blame something other than ourselves when things go wrong.

Actually Vance I winter in Florida, I think its the heat and lack of winter chill that has killed the pines I have owned. They never get more than a week or so of cold temps.

You misunderstood my post where you copied - "like in a colander as they are exposed to air" - that was about the surface roots, I find when I have an almost solid mesh of fine surface roots if I raise the tree and the surface roots are exposed to the air die off, like in a colander when they are exposed to air.

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

Actually Vance I winter in Florida, I think its the heat and lack of winter chill that has killed the pines I have owned. They never get more than a week or so of cold temps.

You misunderstood my post where you copied - "like in a colander as they are exposed to air" - that was about the surface roots, I find when I have an almost solid mesh of fine surface roots if I raise the tree and the surface roots are exposed to the air die off, like in a colander when they are exposed to air.

ed

I got ya. I have a few friends that do this every winter.

 

[Adair M]

Brian,

I don't think your tree is ready for a pot that shallow. You potted that tree as if it were a shohin. Larger trees should be planted with level soils.

It takes several years, as you know, to transition the roots from the nursery cans to bonsai pots. That tree is too nice to rush. In the long run, your nebari will be better if the tree is planted with a level root ball. And every couple of years you continue to remove some depth off the bottom of the rootball. Thus encouraging the roots to grow out, not down.

 

[fourteener]

I have done a lot of pines from nurseries, my suggestion is simply bare root the tree early in your possession. Get things straightened out and don't mess around with half-hearted efforts. You will either kill the tree or be amazed at how it comes to life because the roots were choking the tree to death.

I have learned to do this early in my possession. Better off to have it die early in my possession, than to baby it for three years while it's health declines, still needing for you to do what you should have done three years ago.

This last spring I bare-rooted a scots pine that needed major surgery to correct terrible twisted roots. I prepared for it to be a goner based on how much root work was done. To my surprise it grew better this year than ever. It was choking itself to death.

Just like my tag line... Roots then shoots!

 

[Poink88]

I have done a lot of pines from nurseries, my suggestion is simply bare root the tree early in your possession. Get things straightened out and don't mess around with half-hearted efforts. You will either kill the tree or be amazed at how it comes to life because the roots were choking the tree to death.

I have learned to do this early in my possession. Better off to have it die early in my possession, than to baby it for three years while it's health declines, still needing for you to do what you should have done three years ago.

I agree. I've only bought a few JBP but all the bigger ones (still small) have roots choking the tree trunk. First thing I did was cut those off...now the reverse taper and other problems are slowly going away (the reason they were cheap I guess). A year later, I can hardly see the place where they used to bite in actually.

 

[Vance Wood]

I agree. I've only bought a few JBP but all the bigger ones (still small) have roots choking the tree trunk. First thing I did was cut those off...now the reverse taper and other problems are slowly going away (the reason they were cheap I guess). A year later, I can hardly see the place where they used to bite in actually.

Not meaning to start a disagreement but for the sake of accuracy I have to insert. I looked and Fourteener's blog. He has some very nice trees but most of the pines are not very old and the ones that are, probably were not handled in the way he recommends; bare rooting and hoping the tree survives. Poink admits he has done something with the trees he has bought but it is unclear as to whether they were bare rooted as the previous post indicates.

With the material I have seen here recently, including the original post, I would agree with what has been said. However; though trees in the condition as shown can survive this kind of treatment quite well if done at the right time of year, and depending on species; older and more over-grown trees cannot. You might as well throw them into a wood chipper.

The kind of stuff I work on cannot be treated this way. The root balls are too large, too overgrown and the trees themselves; are too uncommon to treat in a flippant manner. While some are showing trees that have trunks that are still bendable with wire, their condition cannot compare tactically with the kind of stuff I deal with on a regular basis. Trunks that are heavy two to five inches across and in 2 to 3 gallon containers. Some of these trees are in excess of twenty-five years old.

I attached a couple of images that will be part of a project I am working on to present this summer. As usual I have gotten the images reversed so you will be looking at the expanse of the trunk on this first photo of about 4+ inches across and I have not even gotten down to expose the nebari as yet.

This is just a cursory inspection to determine if I have found visually what my fingers told me I had, but could not see. The illustrated tree is from the group shown in the second photo. A group of about eight Mugos I brought home from a nursery last summer. All of them have similar bases and essentially the rest of the bonsai will be developed upon this base. The rest of the tree, depending on the branching, is expendable.

I am not looking for a debate just to inform people that not every thing has to be treated with the comply or die attitude, and knot everything has to be treated the way I do the stuff I work on.


http://www.bonsainut.com/forums/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=6

 

[Adair M]

Vance,

I agree with you. One the one hand, it's best to start on correcting root issues early, on the other hand, not every species can handle bare rooting.

On pines, if a complete change of soil is indicated, do it over 2 repottings. Bareroot half the root ball one year, and do the other half the next.

Whenever you repot a pine, or any tree for that matter, tease out about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of fine roots, so that the root ball looks "hairy or fuzzy". That way the new root growth will extend into the new soil. If you don't, the roots may choose to stay in the old soil, and not grow into the new soil.

That is why many people who "slip pot" trees into bigger pots are dismayed to find out that the tree did not grow as fast as they thought. What happens is the roots stay in the old soil, and the old rootball dries out. Usually the new soil surrounding the old root ball has better (faster) drainage. So, when watered, the water does not penetrate down the old root ball, it goes down through the new soil (where there are no roots) and is wasted. And it carries the fertilizer away, too.

Learning to pot and repot properly is essential to bonsai success!

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,

I agree with you. One the one hand, it's best to start on correcting root issues early, on the other hand, not every species can handle bare rooting.

On pines, if a complete change of soil is indicated, do it over 2 repottings. Bareroot half the root ball one year, and do the other half the next.

Whenever you repot a pine, or any tree for that matter, tease out about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of fine roots, so that the root ball looks "hairy or fuzzy". That way the new root growth will extend into the new soil. If you don't, the roots may choose to stay in the old soil, and not grow into the new soil.

That is why many people who "slip pot" trees into bigger pots are dismayed to find out that the tree did not grow as fast as they thought. What happens is the roots stay in the old soil, and the old rootball dries out. Usually the new soil surrounding the old root ball has better (faster) drainage. So, when watered, the water does not penetrate down the old root ball, it goes down through the new soil (where there are no roots) and is wasted. And it carries the fertilizer away, too.

Learning to pot and repot properly is essential to bonsai success!

I agree fore the most part. I have developed a slightly different method for doing it though.


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[fourteener]

Not meaning to start a disagreement but for the sake of accuracy I have to insert. I looked and Fourteener's blog. He has some very nice trees but most of the pines are not very old and the ones that are, probably were not handled in the way he recommends;

You're right Vance, I don't bare root any of my 150-200 year old pines. My blog doesn't picture the trees that are young and in process. Young pines can take some more harsh treatment( Eastern White Pine being the exception: big babies).

I gonna assume that a tree bought in a nursery is not an old tree. 5-8 years old. I've babied some nursery trees along only to have them get weaker and weaker. When I finally did the root work it was too much for them. Those roots are spinning round and round the pot til they girdle themselves and choke out life. The sooner you intervene the better.

I've tried to do it in stages. The problem there is you have a clay ball around the center of the root ball and good bonsai soil around the outside. Everytime I've repotted after doing that, there is little to no root growth in the good bonsai soil. At this point I just take of business and see what happens. Gathering an old yamadori pine IS a whole different matter. But the question here is concerning nursery stock. Nursery stock is young, young stock can take it.

That's how I roll. I'm happy with the results 95% of the time.

 

[Vance Wood]

You're right Vance, I don't bare root any of my 150-200 year old pines. My blog doesn't picture the trees that are young and in process. Young pines can take some more harsh treatment( Eastern White Pine being the exception: big babies).

I gonna assume that a tree bought in a nursery is not an old tree. 5-8 years old. I've babied some nursery trees along only to have them get weaker and weaker. When I finally did the root work it was too much for them. Those roots are spinning round and round the pot til they girdle themselves and choke out life. The sooner you intervene the better.

I've tried to do it in stages. The problem there is you have a clay ball around the center of the root ball and good bonsai soil around the outside. Everytime I've repotted after doing that, there is little to no root growth in the good bonsai soil. At this point I just take of business and see what happens. Gathering an old yamadori pine IS a whole different matter. But the question here is concerning nursery stock. Nursery stock is young, young stock can take it.

That's how I roll. I'm happy with the results 95% of the time.

That's where you are wrong. Just because a tree comes from a nursery does not mean it's young. But that does not mean I think you should be taken out and shot. If you are talking about trees in general that's one thing if you are talking about pines in particular; anything over 1 gallon is going to be 10 years old and up. You looked at the pictures I posted in this thread, how old do you think these trees are?

Just in case you had not noticed,but all of the trees in my gallery, the link which I posted at the bottom of some of the pages on this thread, are all nursery trees, every last one of them. Some of them were fairly old when I started working on them and I have been working on some of them a long time. I won't tell you how long in case someone will complain: there he goes again mentioning experience, or there he goes trying to justify his work by how long he has been doing it, or, if I had been doing it as long as he I would find something else to do. These are some of the great ones offered by people who cannot argue away what I say so they resort to personal insults. I don't know what else bad anyone can come up with but I am looking forward to adding them to the list. Maybe at some point ???????


http://www.bonsainut.com/forums/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=6

 

[fourteener]

That's where you are wrong. Just because a tree comes from a nursery does not mean it's young. But that does not mean I think you should be taken out and shot. If you are talking about trees in general that's one thing if you are talking about pines in particular; anything over 1 gallon is going to be 10 years old and up. You looked at the pictures I posted in this thread, how old do you think these trees are?

Just in case you had not noticed,but all of the trees in my gallery, the link which I posted at the bottom of some of the pages on this thread, are all nursery trees, every last one of them. Some of them were fairly old when I started working on them and I have been working on some of them a long time. I won't tell you how long in case someone will complain: there he goes again mentioning experience, or there he goes trying to justify his work by how long he has been doing it, or, if I had been doing it as long as he I would find something else to do. These are some of the great ones offered by people who cannot argue away what I say so they resort to personal insults. I don't know what else bad anyone can come up with but I am looking forward to adding them to the list. Maybe at some point ???????


http://www.bonsainut.com/forums/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=6

I don't consider a ten year old pine to be considered old. Difference of opinion I guess. I'm not sure where I personally insulted you. All I am stating is what I have done. Someone asked a question, I responded. Every tree i ever buy from a nursery gets repotted in bonsai soil the next available spring for me. Except Mugos however, thanks to your experience, to which I say thanks.

 

[Vance Wood]

I don't consider a ten year old pine to be considered old. Difference of opinion I guess. I'm not sure where I personally insulted you. All I am stating is what I have done. Someone asked a question, I responded. Every tree i ever buy from a nursery gets repotted in bonsai soil the next available spring for me. Except Mugos however, thanks to your experience, to which I say thanks.

You didn't insult me, I just considered what you said about the age of Pines to be wrong. Does that insult you? Should I just let it go knowing it is wrong?

 

[Poink88]

Poink admits he has done something with the trees he has bought but it is unclear as to whether they were bare rooted as the previous post indicates.

For clarification, I did not bare root mine. Just worked the surface root that is choking the trunk/tree. Didn't even remove all of it, only what I can pull out and if it refuse...just cut it as far as I can. Any and all visible circling roots were cut also.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian,

I don't think your tree is ready for a pot that shallow. You potted that tree as if it were a shohin. Larger trees should be planted with level soils.

It takes several years, as you know, to transition the roots from the nursery cans to bonsai pots. That tree is too nice to rush. In the long run, your nebari will be better if the tree is planted with a level root ball. And every couple of years you continue to remove some depth off the bottom of the rootball. Thus encouraging the roots to grow out, not down.

Yeah...that pot was the best fit I had at the time. It's years from getting out of the back yard, but it will get there someday. It's going to get another round this spring, and between working the bottom and a slightly deeper pot, it will be level. It's a pet peeve of mine to have anything mounded up like it is.

 

[Adair M]

Brian,

Glad to see we're singing from the same hymnbook!

 

[Paradox]

Almost all my trees are nursery trees for the simple fact I dont have a really good bonsai nursery near me.

I am still very new to bonsai, so I dont have long term results yet. Generally any tree I purchase in the spring gets repotted almost as soon as I buy it, except mugos because those prefer after mid-June. This is the first thing I do because it gets it out of the nursery can so I can actually look at what I am dealing with for roots and it gets it into a longer, shorter container that will promote better root growth from the start. After that I leave the tree alone for at least a year sometimes longer. I usually start by cutting the bottom 1/4-1/3 of the root mass off. I usually to cut into the root mass as Vance explained and try to comb out some of the mess without trying to do too much to the tree.

I have a scots pine (first pic) I purchased in the late summer of 2011. It has a 3" diameter trunk so its is not very young. I repotted it in the spring of 2012 and was amazed at the time at how little root mass there actually was. I thought it was going to die to be honest. However it survived and has grown pretty vigorously since then. I am now starting to remove some branches to get it to one main trunk. So far it seems to be pretty healthy and doing fine.



I have a mugo (second pic) that I also purchased in the summer of 2011, and it was repotted that summer into another tall nursery type pot, larger than what it was in originally, simply because at the time I didnt know any better. I left it alone for the most part until this summer and I repotted it again into a better training container. So far it too seems to be doing just fine and will face some more rigorous refinement this year if it seems vigorous this spring.

These are only 2 examples, but I have 5 other mugos that have undergone the same thing and are so far alive. I also have 2 JWP from a nursery that have been treated similarly except for timing of the repot.

I also have a couple of JBP that were purchased from a bonsai nursery. Both of those are in good training pots. One has very good soil, the other looks like it might need a repot this spring (soil starting to get compacted).

I know they arent great trees, but Im learning a lot from them.

 

[Adair M]

I've just completed my second repotting intensive at Boon's. Boon posted on Facebook a tree I was repotting that had been half barerooted the previous year. This year I did the other half.

It was in an Anderson pot. Last year, it was lifted from the flat, and the roots were barerooted by washing them out with a gentle stream of water. Then replaced into the flat and potted up with Boon Mix soil. The roots weren't worked.

This year, I barerooted the other half, and reduced the rootball to pot into a bonsai container.

When I lifted the tree from the Anderson pot, the difference in the two halfs was remarkable! The half that was in Boon mix was white with mychorazzae, which is a good thing. Full of healthy feeder roots. The half with old soil was brown, mushy, and compacted.

I'd post a pic, but I'm posting on my iPhone from the airport, but you can find it on Boon's Facebook page.